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Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 1:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kenneth Blair wrote:
[Facts are something that can be established. You seem to imply this is not the case but I can only lead a horse to water. We come at this 2 ways, investigate the swords archaeological context & physical metallurgical properties and then examine the myths seperately and decide if there is in fact any reason to associate the well known stories to the numerous swords that are presently linked to the Wu/Yue legends in Chinese museums.
The link is there I believe via the legends, but perhaps not a link contemporary to the actual S&A kings themselves.
This would mean they may not be exactly what they are supposed to be according to the label, but instead testify to the way in which the Wu/Yue saga was already being romanticised by the Warring States period.
You are right Peter, that the legends one way or another are part of the swords history (perhaps the legends more than the real kings is my point).
I would not either assume that every bit of the 'true' cross, or iron nail, or piece of shroud bought to Europe by crusading knights from the Holy Lands was actually used in the crucifixion of Jesus either, even if people had revered the various pieces for nearly 1,000 years. Some might just be, but it is fairly certain that not all are. What people 'believe' will only get you so far if authenticity is also important and could concievably be deduced. Consider the "Spear of Destiny". More than one of those has turned up over the last 2,000 years, and the most famous example in Austria is apparently a 7th century AD spear based on a 21st century investigation.


What I imply is that we today have our own contemporary perception of ' facts'. At present I am studying the visigothic law code to have a glimpse of theire perception in order to get some perspective to the settlement site near here. They had a non factual spiritual reason not to live in stone dwelling p.e. At the site this means that older roman rests dominate the absence of visigothic construction whereas they did assimilate most of roman culture and were more numerous at this place. The visigothic perception is crucial yet we do not have a clue as to why. Probably just a visigothic myth Wink

The relic business is a good example of the complexity. A piece of the cross would usually change an obscure church in an important place of reverance attracting thousands of travellers, thus changing the loaclity profoundly. Wether the wood was real or not was irrelevant even then; the history realy changed.

In cooperation with archeologist friends I do some experimental archeology which is valuable BUT.... I live in the heartland of andalucia and quite a lot of local customs at a practical existential level are governed by cultural ' beliefs' that lead to impractical ways and -solutions. Experimental archeology would in those cases lead to a scenario that has little or nothing to do with what is actually done over here. I am conviced, but do not KNOW for a fact, that p.e. bronze age sword making would be heavily influanced by the cultural aspects. I am convinced that swords were far, FAR more important as cultural, virtual, objects than as arms.
What p.e. to think of a rich grave with an at the time centuries old and broken sword on the body?!

Fact: pigs cannot fly. If medieval farmers thought they could, they would have constructed stables like cages, leaving us baffled. The rest of the building, the ' facts' woul leave modern man clueless about why all this extra effort went into the constructions.
This goes back all the way to the neolithic: various forms of stone tools have been worked in ways that appear to have no practical reason, sometimes quite a lot of extra effort leads to less practical, even useless 'tools'. Why?
Look at the artefacts called ' venus', like the venus of willendorf. Those seem wildly out of time in being surprisingly sophisticated: I have a quality replica on the table to remind me of the spiritual perception of man Idea
Add the spiritual flint objects and the venus together and remember that the mind of Homo sapiens is as is and ever was.
Perceived importance is as hard as any ' fact' and spiritual beleif more important than even self preservation.

My point is:
- facts should be seen in their most existential way as facts only
- we should be aware that our perception is just a perception just as real as that in other times
- 'myth' is real as perception
- experimental archeology produces products of OUR perception

Fact: households of myArmoury members contain several swords.
What would this say over their use and importance 5 centuries in the future? That we are a secret warrior class for some reason fighting with ancient arms? That our sword smiths were shamans practicing parodies of ancient anachronistic rituals to produce poor replications of lost art?
Just look at the present day artefacts as ' fact': lots of rubbish, some decent ones and the odd piece of art, most found in places of ' reverance', sometimes even at the wall at the centre of the main dwelling Wink
Fact? It is all perception Laughing Out Loud

peter
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Bennison N




Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Joined: 06 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 3:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kenneth, I am so glad you realised my apology was sarcastic. Otherwise I would have had to explain it as so, and that would've been embarrassing for both of us.

I am from the school of Historical study... currently at Master's level, but I started two whole weeks ago with my Doctorate... And by sheer luck, I managed to pull the Jared Diamond class as my first paper! Hahaha!

I suppose I should sincerely apologise for misleading the 10 or so people who read this thread. What I said was popular myth, however sanctioned by the Chinese Communist Party, and expressed in everything from comic book to action movie, and including the tours at Shanghai Museum (I studied at Tong Ji for a year), Suzhou Museum (two of my ex-girlfriends came from Suzhou... Oddly enough, they both chose "Emma" for their English name), and Hubei Museum (I've been there four times...). It is. however, mostly unproven legend, rather than "fact" (the Historian word for "I thought so...") proven by an eye witness who saw it all... It is, however, fun to listen to, a "fact" even Mr. Blair can't deny...

I have to be perfectly honest, my experience with Jian is mostly by way of practical experience in more matches than I can count. I know the history in perfect detail for the Jian which I own, without a single exception. The rest is just an attempt to understand Jianshu as best as possible. That way, when I challenge Liu Shifu at Wudang Shan Golden Roof Pagoda with his Ba Gua Jian, as I promised to do in 2004, I will win. That way, when I re-challenge Cheung Sifu in Macau, with his Bai Mei Qiang, I will win. And that way, when I challenge Master Lee here in Auckland, with the first Jianshu I ever learnt (Chen Jia Taiji Jianshu), I will win. This very day, Sunday the 9th of March 2008, I beat Master Berry Sione... in a series of four matches, at his home in Glenfield, Auckland, New Zealand. I am the first to admit that I prefer the Practical aspect of Jianshu to the Historical.

Lately, though, I've been thinking that I'd like to try my Jianshu, and the wonderful Jian in my small collection, against Western swordsmanship. This is something I have only ever done with Olympic Fencing, a style I now see does not represent Western Swordsmanship much at all. Instead of attempting to discredit my University degrees, you could perhaps accomodate me in this way, Mr. Blair...

"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius

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Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 3:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kenneth, I probably should add that I do NOT disagree with you, nor disagree with Jeroen but neither witt the Son of Benni.

I disagree strongly with 'established' popular main stream archeology that untill quite recently was far too preoccupied with assuming it's own restricted perception as 'factual'.
The present trend towards a multidisciplinary approach is the way to go. Maybe, one day, the multidisciplinary taskforce will even start to look at africa Laughing Out Loud

peter
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Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 4:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

'and now for something completely different' (with thanks to Monty Python): back to jian blades Laughing Out Loud

I have tried to buy a Qing period 'zeven stars' jian. The bronze plugs serve(d) no practical purpose yet have been a typical feature for centuries and I too am prepaired to pay extra for the perceived value; the spiritual meaning, whereas I know for a FACT they are simply bronze plugs Idea
The sword acquires special REAL 'properties' to me because of what it represent in my perception beyond what it metallurgically is.
However rational I look at it, the sword has 'something' intangible. This exists only in my mind but is 'caused' by my perception of the sword and very REAL. That whatever influances ME and thus my handling it and is thus..... magic?
It is the most natural thing to address these sort of purely spritual effects to the artefact and it is not at all that simple to draw distinguishing lines as perception IS reality.

Look at modern team sports: home games have better results than out games. Why? Now take a bat or outfit that gives the player the same kind of confidance and it is a 'lucky' whatsit.
Now imagine a sword that IS very good quality, metallurgically excellent with some 'rabbitsfoot' gadget in the hands of a very good swordsman = magic.

peter
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Kenneth Blair





Joined: 05 Mar 2008

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 1:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bennison N wrote:
Kenneth, I am so glad you realised my apology was sarcastic. Otherwise I would have had to explain it as so, and that would've been embarrassing for both of us.

I am from the school of Historical study... currently at Master's level, but I started two whole weeks ago with my Doctorate... And by sheer luck, I managed to pull the Jared Diamond class as my first paper! Hahaha!

I suppose I should sincerely apologise for misleading the 10 or so people who read this thread. What I said was popular myth, however sanctioned by the Chinese Communist Party, and expressed in everything from comic book to action movie, and including the tours at Shanghai Museum (I studied at Tong Ji for a year), Suzhou Museum (two of my ex-girlfriends came from Suzhou... Oddly enough, they both chose "Emma" for their English name), and Hubei Museum (I've been there four times...). It is. however, mostly unproven legend, rather than "fact" (the Historian word for "I thought so...") proven by an eye witness who saw it all... It is, however, fun to listen to, a "fact" even Mr. Blair can't deny...

I have to be perfectly honest, my experience with Jian is mostly by way of practical experience in more matches than I can count. I know the history in perfect detail for the Jian which I own, without a single exception. The rest is just an attempt to understand Jianshu as best as possible. That way, when I challenge Liu Shifu at Wudang Shan Golden Roof Pagoda with his Ba Gua Jian, as I promised to do in 2004, I will win. That way, when I re-challenge Cheung Sifu in Macau, with his Bai Mei Qiang, I will win. And that way, when I challenge Master Lee here in Auckland, with the first Jianshu I ever learnt (Chen Jia Taiji Jianshu), I will win. This very day, Sunday the 9th of March 2008, I beat Master Berry Sione... in a series of four matches, at his home in Glenfield, Auckland, New Zealand. I am the first to admit that I prefer the Practical aspect of Jianshu to the Historical.

Lately, though, I've been thinking that I'd like to try my Jianshu, and the wonderful Jian in my small collection, against Western swordsmanship. This is something I have only ever done with Olympic Fencing, a style I now see does not represent Western Swordsmanship much at all. Instead of attempting to discredit my University degrees, you could perhaps accomodate me in this way, Mr. Blair...


Please, call me Kenneth.
Yes, these stories are found in comic books and movies. The performed the same entertainment function even 2,000 years ago. This is why I question especially the links of historical QSH to the Ganjiang and Ouye Zi/Ou Yezi stories.
I really do not see the point of you mentioning any of these irrelevancies about your martial artist abilties, nor why you suggest I am discrediting your degree by making the points I have made.
Ancient Chinese warriors, the knightly class, youxia, (daijianzhe/swordsmen) had a code of chivalry which essentially meant 'beating' people was not quite as important as how you conduct yourself. This is a theme of the period we are discussing here. I am glad for you recent victory. In fact we are countrymen! (small world) However if you make a mistake at other endeavours, you have made a mistake. As I am an academically trained person also, but pursued my own research over the last 10 years, I would be checking and more aware of the sources of information before I quote them or repeat them. This is real basic stuff. By the time you reach a Masters level your should have had many times already when work may have been questioned and certainly going forward you may need to experience a few 're-writes' before you are through the process.
Obviously you have great pride in your ability to weild a jian. I am glad some people keep combative martial arts alive since the Wushu as I have been taught is essentially a dance type ('modern' PRC Wushu that is). I know of instances of people seeking teachers even in China but the Cultural Revolution seems to have done much harm. This discussion however does not require you to assume your intergrity is slighted. I find your defensiveness quite perplexing when from the get-go I noted your knowledge of this is quite detailed but that you include a lot of confusing details all in a single mix. You certainly know all the legends (although you did neglect some), but whether 10 or 9 or 11 people read this thread you have made errors of fact that are plain to me. Move on, as we all make mistakes and it is best to feel foolish for an instant but perhaps take something from this. When I read a comment I wrote years ago I do realise that learning is a neverending process and I do edit my earlier works. The journey is not complete. If you object to my clarifiactions of the Wu Yue Chunqiu as East Han narratives fact remains I do this for interested researchers who might stumble across this just like I did since sites like the Universalswordsman are not a good resource. If you also want to believe Chinese museums swipe at piles of paper with ancient swords and the construction of these swords is a bronze iron mix, then that is your call but I know other people who really do care about the difference.
If you are familiar with jian in practical terms then the descriptions you made of the alleged Goujian sword, now corrected, may help you better understand an object that apparently you have viewed 3 times yet made a really perplexing observation over its construction. Whatever level you swing a sword at, a Master, and your own academic studies, a Master, I would suggest you at least accept what has been said here if you do have any of the spirit of learning still within you. If you have anything to add, I am all ears, as I am continually learning from those people with a interest in mutual discussion.
I am perfectly willing to "accomadate you'". In fact a meeting of displines is often very fruitful as I make use or quite a number of people with much greater niche knowledge than my own.

I am almost done with this thread I think.

In my research of Yue 'culture' and correspondence with others it is apparent the Yue at the time of the late S&A period were across 2 cultures (Zhou & tribal Yue). The tomb of an anonymous (?) Yue king from 2,500 years ago was investigated in 1998 and interestingly it had a mound burial but the central occupant was buried in a dug-out canoe....a real link to the 'river Yue' and burials in canoes to the south of the central plains. In the late S&A these people were already in transition.
There is a 'Yue' style refered to by Chinese archaeologists as an artefactual and burial style in work between 1998-2006. There is a Yue culture museum in Shaoxing and the museum of Zhejiang at Hangzhou which may provide answers if I can query the curators and read beyond the brief labels presented to me.
In the meantime a scholar of these histories informs me the names of the later Yue kings, even after the destruction of Wu, have apparently both a 'Yue' language name and a Zhou name as found inscribed in bronze and in records from lost bamboo annals.
This suggests something other than a 'barbarian' like the Nanyue (at this time) Minyue, Ba/Shu Dian, etc. who have no use of writing before being forcibly made part of the Chinese world.
There are a great number of inscribed weapons found in the area of Wu & Yue. My riddle is whether some or all or none of the most famous Goujian/Helu/Fuchai swords are correctly attributed. I suspect some are and other not (I especially would query those without inscriptions, or found outside Zhejiang/Jiangshu!). There are however various Wu dukes and later Yue kings who are found on inscribed weapons that at least have come from the regions we might expect. Some inscriptions only have one character that can be read in a passage while others can be largely translated.
Just how conventionally 'Zhou' these objects appear would be a clue as to whether the conventially 'Zhou' Goujian sword would fit in the hands of a Yue king. To what degree a Yue 'style' influences weapons is unknown as a contemporary grave complex of nobles opened in 2004 showed a mix of both central plains and 'Yue' stlyes on the buried artefacts.
The difficulties in translating the inscriptions on these weapons in revealed by this below:

Two ge dagger-axes were unearthed in Shaoxing 紹興, Zhejiang province, in the 1990s. One is now in the Shaoxing Museum of Yue Culture, while the other is owned by a private collector in Macau. The Shaoxing ge bears an inscription in 12 characters, which after converting various ancient variant characters to their modern equivalent, can be read as:

越王差徐以其鐘金鑄其拱戟

(the ji halberd which was cast with metal from melted-down bells [or metal originally meant for casting bells] and wielded by the King of Yue 差徐)

The characters 差徐 are difficult to interpret. In a 2004 article, Cao Jinyan 曹錦炎 understood them to mean "assisting Xu" (佐徐), which would suggest the dagger-axe was made at a time when Yue was allied with the state of Xu, which was conquered by Wu in 512 BC. The king of Yue at this time was Yunchang 允常 (Goujian's father), and he fought an indecisive war with Wu in 510 BC. But a later article by Zhao Ping'an 趙平安 argues that 差徐 is a name, and that it was a variant transliteration of the name Shiyu 鼫與, Shiyu being Goujian's son and successor according to the Shiji of Sima Qian. Zhao speculates that 差 in this context means 嗟 (jie, 'sigh'), and that "sighing for Xu" (嗟徐) was a name that Goujian gave his son as a reminder that Yue should not be allowed to suffer Xu's fate of annexation by Wu.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sun 09 Mar, 2008 1:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Friends,
There is a more heated tone to many of these posts than we like to have here. If you cannot be civil, courteous, professional, and objective then please do not post.

Thank you.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Mon 10 Mar, 2008 1:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kenneth Blair wrote:
I am almost done with this thread I think.


I sincerely hope not.

The fact that you and Bennison shine from different angles is more enlightening than if you would both hold the same lamp from the same side of the subject: the differing facets make the diamant.

peter
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Thomas Watt




Location: Metrowest Boston
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PostPosted: Mon 10 Mar, 2008 3:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Speaking as another Jian owner, I'd like to echo Peter's expressed hope that you are not "done"... I certainly appreciate the information and scholarship... and it's nice to offset and augment the information provided by my martial arts instructor, who comes more from a place of legend and lore about these blades rather than hard scholarship (to be expected, as watching him with a sword is almost like watching something mystical happening - he practically floats).
Have 11 swords, 2 dirks, half a dozen tomahawks and 2 Jeeps - seem to be a magnet for more of all.
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Kenneth Blair





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PostPosted: Mon 10 Mar, 2008 4:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

When I get back from China I will post my findings here, or at least what I can establish for better or worse.
It seems that the Yue & Wu nobility made great use of inscriptions on ancient weapons, swords and dagger-axes.

As the Wu is likely the filter for Zhou culture into the Yue state the legend of Goujian gifting master-swords to Wu may be a reverse of the actual process by which Yue can be noted for fine weapons. i.e the semi-barbarian Yue would be influenced by the Zhou styles of weapon & bronze working rather than the reverse.
This is to be cofirmed, but at least part of the inscriptions on weapons found of Yue/Zhejiang provenance these date AFTER the destruction of Wu in Goujians time suggesting a people who are further along a process of interaction with the Zhou sphere.
In the period 2,500 years ago the Yue people would be influenced by different cultural traditions, Yue to the south and Zhou to the north. This was the frontier.
I do have a number of names of Yue kings to check and I will return to this before my trip. I am attending a conference in Suzhou which is being attended by foreign and Chinese scholars of warfare so will have something coherent prepared before then if there is somebody who can aid me.
It may be based on the many post-Wu era Yue swords that the weapons of Yue nobles were plundered or somehow bought to Chu when the Yue leadership was destroyed by Chu state in the Warring States period. This is one way they (lik the sword of 'Goujian' king of Yue) could appear in Warring States tombs in a distant province. It would however be open to debate if the sword really is Goujians due to the bird script, but a confirmation of inscribed weapons from the pre-Goujian period as opposed to the post-Wu period would be a good support of the weapons attribution to this date rather than in the Warring States period. The issue is just how certain the name on the sword (perhaps "Jiuqian") can be said to mean 'Goujian' in the Zhou language. The Yue lists are difficult since there are as many as 3 names, assuming the lists in the West Han are correct.
Whether other Yue rulers after the victory of Chu may have declared themselve 'wang' (king) is another suggestion since I am told Chu did not so much occupy the Yue 'state' but destroyed them in battle, after which they are not mentioned again.
The trick would be to look at each sword by itself and its archaeological provenance in a sequence, so I will bring a list.

As 2 pieces of trivia there is a sword in Shanghai museum I have seen pictures of which shows a seperate casting of tin edges over a copper spine (a bi-mettalic bronze) and this also may belong to a Yue king mentioned in some personal correspondence, as the blade is shown in section.
(image attached) http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/8675/pict0248hf21ay6.jpg
According to an online source, there is also a sword in the Shanghai Museum with inscriptions reading 戉王丌北古 (?beigu, King of Yue) and 戉王丌北古自作元用之剑 (the sword personally mase and wielded by ?beigu, King of Yue). However, the sword was unearthed in bad condition - heavily rusted and corroded, and broken into four sections. Another sword with very similar inscriptions (including the name 丌北古) was found in a Warring States tomb in Anqing 安慶, Anhui province in 1987, and is now in the Anqing City Museum. It is in much better condition than the Shanghai Museum, but Anqing will probably be too out of the way for you to visit. Chinese archaeologists identify 丌北古 as the king named as Manggu in the Bamboo Annals and as Bushou in the Shiji.




& aside from the numerous diamond patterned swords that do exist I chanced across an archived picture of a similar sword that was on an American very high-end dealers site. This will be 100% real and the same business performs authentication service of museum quality antiques, especially Chinese bronze, via the most detailed & scientific means.
But see this and compare to the quality of the Goujian sword (note the glass & turquoise 'Taotie mask' inlay also):
(attached). http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/2989/image0351oo9.jpg



Another point to be made, it is quite possible the people in this region (south-east coast/Wu Yue) developed a reputation for fine swords and this along with the romance of the Wu/Yue saga was the seed of many myths over the centuries.
The paper I was reading last night on the Xia and the romanticism of the Xia (knight) in the Han period noted that by the East Han the Wu Yue histories were much expanded with fictional elements and that while Sima Qian used real history to make moral tales the later people were not at all reserved about fictional encounters and expansion of details for the purpose of narration or poetic structure.
The reference then of QinShiHuang owning a tai'e sword can make sense as a metaphor for accepting the entry of foreigners for their expertise is a king can own precious objects otherwise not availible in their own country.
This is perhaps the grain of truth.
As said I would need to see what I find out about the family tree of Yue nobility, and deduce a sequence and then see if it is supported by the locations in which these artefacts are found.

i.e: even Wu kings, Helu (King Guang) is buried at Tiger Hill yet there is a sword in Suzhou with his name on it and here is another attributed to him at Shanghai. Obvious question, is there an inscription on this sword too? Where & how was it found?
(sword of king Guang/Helu attached) http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/7705/21373...fo1ta2.jpg


Especially of the 3 most famous kings there is a surpising amount of their weapons around, so whether the issue is the inscription and eagerness by museums to link them, or which are more credible of the total, or whether the Goujian sword is a later East Zhou 'tribute' to the myth, or simply a only a slightly later Yue kings named-sword who was not even the historical Goujian, or whether it is Goujians (but irrelevant to the later tales) there is a lot to be sorted out.....
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Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
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PostPosted: Tue 11 Mar, 2008 1:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Buneas, all we need is for the alos valued and respected Bennison to retake up his thread too.

I will not put insult upon injury and will thus start a thread on 'myths' or reality in off topic.

peter
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Bennison N




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PostPosted: Tue 11 Mar, 2008 3:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kenneth,

You definitely know your stuff. You say you are my countryman? Then perhaps we could discuss this historical matter at further length over a cup of coffee, some food, or a drink here in AKL at some point? And I would certainly appreciate the opportunity to have a match against your wushu. Which fist do you play? Would you prefer me to use a Chinese or Japanese weapon, or no weapon at all? I will allow you to stipulate the finer details, including rules, if you like. I am currently recovering from a very strange foot injury, and I understand you are in China at present, so keep me posted as to when you would like to do this.

In regards to my defensive outburst, my apologies to Chad, Peter and of course Kenneth. I take the matter of my swordsmanship far too seriously. It is my only serious obsessive hobby, now that I no longer compete in ring sports. I also often become quite aggressive before a match, a "fact" my girlfriend will attest to (and swear profusely about...). I don't think it was even what you said that set me off this time. It seems no damage has been done, so we can continue with the discussion on Jian Blades without any loss of momentum, I hope.

An interesting question was raised by another member of this forum on another thread, but it seems equally relevant to a discussion on Jian Blades.

He asked as to why the addition of fullers was not applied to the hugely vast majority of Chinese swords. I did not know, although I suspected that it was due to the quality of the steel in some cases, and the need for blade flexibility in others. Every functional, as compared to sporting, Jian I have handled has a suitably sturdy blade, with the ability to retain shape easily despite some fairly intense bending, and this seems to become more obvious the later the period from which the sword comes. It would seem to me that fullers weren't adopted or adapted purely by not being necessary. In my opinion, Jian are never heavy enough to require the strengthening and lightening of the blade that fullers provide.

What are some other opinions on this? Does anyone know of some fine Chinese swords that did use fullers perhaps?

Peter,

Any updates on the acquisition of your sword? It is a very nice one, it seems to be exactly what you wanted, albeit due some minor restoration work.

"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius

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Peter Bosman




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PostPosted: Tue 11 Mar, 2008 4:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bennison N wrote:


Any updates on the acquisition of your sword? It is a very nice one, it seems to be exactly what you wanted, albeit due
some minor restoration work.


Sofar no further notice. I am a bit miffed about that but, patience is a virtue, so I have dug op some, just... Wink

I am not sure what I will do restoration wise. I wil NEED to arrest the active rust and am informing about the best way to achieve this. Wether I will do any more, I will determain when I have it in my hands. The way I look at it quite enough patina has been 'cleaned' already.

Pressing thumbs,

peter
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Kenneth Blair





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PostPosted: Tue 11 Mar, 2008 4:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bennison N wrote:
Kenneth,

You definitely know your stuff. You say you are my countryman? Then perhaps we could discuss this historical matter at further length over a cup of coffee, some food, or a drink here in AKL at some point? And I would certainly appreciate the opportunity to have a match against your wushu. Which fist do you play? Would you prefer me to use a Chinese or Japanese weapon, or no weapon at all? I will allow you to stipulate the finer details, including rules, if you like. I am currently recovering from a very strange foot injury, and I understand you are in China at present, so keep me posted as to when you would like to do this.

In regards to my defensive outburst, my apologies to Chad, Peter and of course Kenneth. I take the matter of my swordsmanship far too seriously. It is my only serious obsessive hobby, now that I no longer compete in ring sports. I also often become quite aggressive before a match, a "fact" my girlfriend will attest to (and swear profusely about...). I don't think it was even what you said that set me off this time. It seems no damage has been done, so we can continue with the discussion on Jian Blades without any loss of momentum, I hope.

An interesting question was raised by another member of this forum on another thread, but it seems equally relevant to a discussion on Jian Blades.

He asked as to why the addition of fullers was not applied to the hugely vast majority of Chinese swords. I did not know, although I suspected that it was due to the quality of the steel in some cases, and the need for blade flexibility in others. Every functional, as compared to sporting, Jian I have handled has a suitably sturdy blade, with the ability to retain shape easily despite some fairly intense bending, and this seems to become more obvious the later the period from which the sword comes. It would seem to me that fullers weren't adopted or adapted purely by not being necessary. In my opinion, Jian are never heavy enough to require the strengthening and lightening of the blade that fullers provide.

What are some other opinions on this? Does anyone know of some fine Chinese swords that did use fullers perhaps?

Peter,

Any updates on the acquisition of your sword? It is a very nice one, it seems to be exactly what you wanted, albeit due some minor restoration work.


I did mention I have trained at the modern sport Wushu, but to be clear there is no partner work and next to no application understood by the instructors even when I queried them. This was the competition type based on form. I did visually match some techniques to a Taiwanese manual of long-fist kung-fu (written outside the influence of the communist Cultural Revolution) but I only trained modern Wushu as an aesthetic style purely for the beauty of it. The best applications behind them still compare poorly to praticalities of karate kata and even kata are stylised and more about visualisation than literal. The Wushu jian was something I was shown after quite some time on fist forms and while the style was physically demanding I did this under no illusion over what I might take from it nor would I presume to have developed the fluid grace required for competition. That said, it is about 2 years since I last trained at wushu and my son holds my training jian more than I do these days. In 2006 I had a confrontational enounter with a group of hood-rats during which I had a knife jabbed at my belly & I blocked it using a karate outer forearm technique. I returned to my older training methods after that. Modern wushu as taught in the PRC is a martial ART rather MARTIAL skill so of those people who can find teachers who have origins in real masters who fled the mainland before the mutilation of culture, or those few masters who survived 10 years in labour camps & are not teaching a post-1949 construct, I am most glad there may be some continuity with real swordsmen.
I am not sure the spirit of your offer is one that I would be accepting regardless as I trained with people to provide a mutual benefit, whether it be fitness or partnerwork or insight, and I did not do it to establish relative supremacy. I have never been inclined to feel aggresive in anticipation or as a result of MA activities. I trained combatively only in empty handed styles & I never used weapons untill my period of Wushu. It is not since last summer I have put on a pair of gloves and this was a weekly friendly training with people from Muay Thai backgrounds.
If you are in peak form, nice, but I see little point from what I gather in meeting you and your sword when the most I do these days is stroll with my wife & son, or bike to work. Typically when I invite people to my home it is to show them my collection of ancient weapons rather than jab at them with the pointy ends.
I live in Hamilton BTW and what would be more mutually beneficial would be for you to share your insights into jian technique and 'real' form (practical/military martial arts) and for me to allow you to examine a few bronze jian and other representative East Zhou-Han period weapons.
In a spirit of mutual learning, you are welcome.

I have posted a number of artefacts on the China history forum, and these may be of interest to you.
The Dian culture sword hilts are especially beautiful. There are quite a number of these around in collections but here are some good examples:
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=13653
Here is a Han dao (see from page 2, 2007 post) which is the earlier true 'sabre' in the ancient period, yet most unlike the Turkic inspired curved sabre of the later period.
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=7440
Numerous museum quality weapons in a private Taiwanese collection;
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=17405
A number of bronze swords I viewed in Taiwan
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=16791
3 Bronze swords being examined
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=13202
An iron/steel sword from ancient China
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=9583
bronze halberds in the East Zhou/Han (ji & ge)
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=21558
Xiongnu (steppes nomad) blades and arrowheads
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=19286
ancient Chinese crossbows (an old thread, most info on page 2)
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=4470

I have various other ancient weapon threads but the ones above mainly draw on collector examples I have viewed, or have at home.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding fullers, on ancient bronze swords where the fullers appear, in the late Warring States period and early Han, this is when swords required lateral strength and were used for cut & slash strikes. I used to mistakenly think they were blood grooves when I first saw them but some swords have multiple fullers and occur on weapons not suitable for sticking in peoples ribs (hence not to prevent blade suction).
The earliest bronze swords were thrusting jian, some would be effective for little else as they do not have the point of balance to make a more versatile sword, being not much more the 40cm in length.
Fullers appear on some longer bronze jian and dao in later periods and they both conserve weight (bronze being slightly heavier than iron) while providing strength on a cutting action since it maximises the surface area of the sword.
Some early steel dao do appear to have the fullers added also, but jian typically have a diamond cross section (or graduated cross section). This is likely related to niche function with even the long fine jian being developed to thrust and the long steel "Han" dao being an exclusive slashing weapon.
The early Han dao having no hand gaurd to stop the hand sliding along the blade in a thrust, this suggest each had a real specialisation in the period of the Han when the 2 forms began evolving apart (see Han dao thread). The jian would naturally be more versatile I would assume but for rather unclear reasons the ring pommeled style of Han dao was used well beyond the Han period, around the 5th century AD IIRC. My impression is that when swords of 1 metre length became common (even 1.4m swords exist) the weapon lended itself to a effective cutting blade rather than a nimble thrusting/fencing style and the design was specialised to the extent that Han infantry are most commonly depicted in art with the long ring-pommeled dao. Even in tomb finds Yang Hong suggested the dao takes favoured position. It has been implied by martial artists the jian is a more complex weapon to weild, especially in the dimensions of these longer swords, and assuming distinct martial styles existed the 'slash' overtook the 'thrust'. For basic 'grunt' infantry, the simpler dao was the weapon of choice.
Of the lack or presence of fullers in later periods, my own study is only bronze & early iron age so why the diamond cross section remained on jian quite consistently could be mix of the orginal 'thrusting' (fencing) styles continuity in later periods and also as N Bennison said, the steel, by the mid-West Han, was of excellent quality.
As the fuller is not common on steel dao it suggest the quality of the metal may not have required the extra difficulty in fashioning them unlike the earliest steel or bronze version. On the longest bronze swords more complex cross sections were devised to increase strength in the period when they competed with iron blades but as the raw materials of folded mid-carbon steel were produced in great quantity and quality in the Imperial Chang'an armouries the Han period at least settled on a steel dao/wedge cross section & steel jian/diamond cross section.
Somebody with a knowledge of later dynasties and evolutions would need to comment on the jian of the next 1,500 years, but I do get the impression the jian from the East Zhou to Tang to Ching has a consistent long & rather fine blade type even if the hilts and cross-gaurds changed.
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Bennison N




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PostPosted: Wed 12 Mar, 2008 4:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kenneth,

I apologise if I implied that I wanted to have a live blade match, or anything less than a practice session at what I would deem to be your level through a series of tests. I don't want to beat you up with a sword, mate. You being from NZ as well, you will know that the authorities will frown upon that, and we would be likely to experience interrogation at Glock-point.

I am not an aggressive man by nature, I simply use aggression as a "supplement" for more serious matches. I suppose you could say I practice a form of anti-Jing Qi Shen (which you may or may not recognise from esoteric Daoism...), and the benefits are substantial. Intense and controlled aggression by pure choice allows for a greater flow of controlled Adrenaline and Testosterone, and this is extremely useful in instances where I need to throw my large frame (187cm, 109kg) around quickly and with more agility. I induce it through immobile meditation, believe it or not. I realise that this is in direct opposition to a lot of "mindset" teachings from schools all over the world, but I like to stick to what works.

I was far more naturally aggressive before I switched to the pursuit of Swordsmanship, as opposed to my earlier goal of unarmed mastery. Pugilism is still a passion of mine. Very much so, in fact.

I am a serious martial artist. I have experience with many different types of empty handed combat systems, including Lethwei, which is Burmese Boxing (similar to Muay Thai), Kempo, Judo, Jujutsu, Boxing, Silat, Tae Kwon Do, and about 8 schools of Chinese Wushu, in the martial, not sporting sense. I can assure you I am far from the troublemaking ruffian my first impression to you may have suggested. You, and others, I can assure you, merely caught the end of my psyche up for my match against Berry Sione.

I have a younger sister who lives Hamilton with 3 of my nephews, as well as a younger brother who studies at Waikato. I would very much like to meet with you sometime to discuss Spring and Autumn Period arms. I even have something that you may be able to help me with. I intend to adapt the basic bronze sword design to a much longer (103cm total, blade 80cm)) very, very fine steel sword with a one-piece stone (green jade) hilt, handle and pommel. I sent the esteemed smithie various photos I took of the Hubei Goujian bronze blade, but with your knowledge combined with mine, we could come up with a very beautiful, functional piece. Plus, it'll be my shout for drinks, dinner or coffee...
______________________________________________________________________________________________

I have noticed a lot of Dao with fullers, especially in later Dynasty patterns, and scattered examples starting with Song, it seems. Like Kenneth mentioned in regards to other swords, I thought they were blood grooves, but the Dao is far more a cutting sword than one for thrusting. It does, however, thrust very well. I see parallels to Roman Era Iberian and Macedonian Falcata, which are used as cutters, thrust very well, and have similar grooves (which seem to act in the way of fullers) on the blade. The ring pommels on Han Dao have given way to smaller loops for tassels as time went on, but the blade shape is essentially the same. Tang had a spate of very Katana-looking Dao, but that is to be expected, as the national dress of Japan is Tang Dynasty fashion. It makes sense that swords there would be similar to this period as well.

I also think this is a relevant point in the case of Korea, which has Han Dynasty fashion as their national dress, and made very fine swords (Although some were moulded, rather than forged...) of a type similar to Han Jian.

Han Jian have a far thicker cross-section to, it seems, every other Dynasty. This, and the advances made in steel during this time, make the swords from Han very good cutters, as well as thrusters. All later Dynasties only use the robust diamond for war-swords, used by Military officers. The more "effeminate" scholar swords have a far less rigid blade, and this allows for the "wobbly" (the best adjective, I think) point. This is excellent for the type of technique used, where often smaller cuts to vital points are far more sought after than severing limbs or running a man through. The wobbly point seems to be in direct contrast to what European swordsmen want in a sword, to me appearing to explain the popularity of fullers in European blades.

So it is the sturdy diamond cross sections, the finesse sought after by swordsmen and the fine steel that made fullers redundant in Chinese swords. Any other theories?

"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius

अजयखड्गधारी


Last edited by Bennison N on Thu 13 Mar, 2008 3:21 am; edited 2 times in total
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Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
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PostPosted: Wed 12 Mar, 2008 5:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bennison N wrote:
Peter,

Any updates on the acquisition of your sword?



My buy has been confirmed, funds transferred.

peter
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Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Wed 12 Mar, 2008 5:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bennison N wrote:
So it is the sturdy diamond cross sections, the finesse sought after by swordsmen and the fine steel that made fullers redundant in Chinese swords. Any other theories?


I suppose you need look no further that the functionality mentioned in the ts: it is meant to be a general purpose sword. The shape of the blade with it;s parellel edges makes this pretty clear. The lenticular shape offers all flexibility in design needed without sacrificing metal behind the edge.
Fullers offer no advantage as the central 'ridge' provides sufficient stiffness and would ask for a different blade profile altogether.
As the blades are all relatively short to very short, making the sword lighter is not realy necessary and would make it less effective in cutting and possibly introduce funny side effects in flexibility and dynamics. Variation in thickness and distal taper offers all the flexiblity in design needed.
So, the question is not why there generally are no fullers, but why there should be. Why bother, why complicate life?

peter
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Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

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PostPosted: Wed 12 Mar, 2008 9:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bennison N wrote:
The more "effeminate" scholar swords have a far less rigid blade, and this allows for the "wobbly" (the best adjective, I think) point. This is excellent for the type of technique used, where often smaller cuts to vital points are far more sought after than severing limbs or running a man through. The wobbly point seems to be in direct contrast to what European swordsmen want in a sword, to me appearing to explain the popularity of fullers in European blades.


I have thought a bit about this and not quite agree. Or at least possibly not.
You write ' wobbly' but so far I have not handled an authentic functional jian that could be called wobbly. Are you perhaps including strictly ceremonial and 20th century blades?

Also one should not compair a jian with a rapier of smallsword but with a dedicated cut and thrust blade. Most European blades are a lot longer and have FAR more distal taper which changes both the dynamics and the geometry thus both the effect and demand for fullers.
The max. blade length of a typical jian is shorter than a shortish one handed knightly sword. The oneandhalf handers or 'longswords' are WAY longer yet still most times diamond- or lens shaped in profile.
One cannot compair a 26 inch jian with a 38 inch rapier. At least not in an attempt to understand why the first is unfullered and the second fullered Idea
Lastly one should remember that a jian will be highly resistant to breaking whereas a rapier would break rather than bend. During a whole lot of time bending was preferred over breaking and this should be seen in the light of the realities of batlling for exiting of fighting a regulated duel.

Historically warring users seem to have demanded bladesmiths to make blades that would give rather than break and jian simple have retained this quality. This becomes logical if one realises that the jian never evolved into a duelling tool whereas the european sword as such disappeared and evolved into an all duelling instrument Idea
Exceptions confirm the rule Wink

peter
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Kenneth Blair





Joined: 05 Mar 2008

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PostPosted: Wed 12 Mar, 2008 2:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bennison N wrote:
Kenneth,

I apologise if I implied that I wanted to have a live blade match, or anything less than a practice session at what I would deem to be your level through a series of tests. I don't want to beat you up with a sword, mate. You being from NZ as well, you will know that the authorities will frown upon that, and we would be likely to experience interrogation at Glock-point.

I am not an aggressive man by nature, I simply use aggression as a "supplement" for more serious matches. I suppose you could say I practice a form of anti-Jing Qi Shen (which you may or may not recognise from esoteric Daoism...), and the benefits are substantial. Intense and controlled aggression by pure choice allows for a greater flow of controlled Adrenaline and Testosterone, and this is extremely useful in instances where I need to throw my large frame (187cm, 109kg) around quickly and with more agility. I induse it through immobile meditation, believe it or not. I realise that this is in direct opposition

I was far more naturally aggressive before I switched to the pursuit of Swordsmanship, as opposed to my earlier goal of unarmed mastery. Pugilism is still a passion of mine. Very much so, in fact.

I am a serious martial artist. I have experience with many different types of empty handed combat systems, including Lethwei, which is Burmese Boxing (similar to Muay Thai), Kempo, Judo, Jujutsu, Boxing, Silat, Tae Kwon Do, and about 8 schools of Chinese Wushu, in the martial, not sporting sense. I can assure you I am far from the troublemaking ruffian my first impression to you may have suggested. You, and others, I can assure you, merely caught the end of my psyche up for my match against Berry Sione.

I have a younger sister who lives Hamilton with 3 of my nephews, as well as a younger brother who studies at Waikato. I would very much like to meet with you sometime to discuss Warring States Period arms. I even have something that you may be able to help me with. I intend to adapt the basic bronze sword design to a much longer (103cm total, blade 80cm)) very, very fine steel sword with a one-piece stone (green jade) hilt, handle and pommel. I sent the esteemed smithie various photos I took of the Hubei Goujian bronze blade, but with your knowledge combined with mine, we could come up with a very beautiful, functional piece. Plus, it'll be my shout for drinks, dinner or coffee...
______________________________________________________________________________________________



After I get back from my trip I will post here again, and then via PM we can arrange something.
You have a higher weight class than me, but I am happy to spar again big and challenging opponents....when MA is needed you would seldom be attacked by a weakling!
I might need to coax someone over to hold some pads for me before that since muscles lose a lot of snap if the peculiar little shoulder muscles and joints haven't been used for a while. I would need to work on 'puff' to make it worth your time.
There is of course a chance to share knowledge beyond that.

I would love to see modern jian, as I have only seen tourist jian of the modern swords of China. If I didn't collect ancient bronzes I would very much like a real quality sword but since the prices for an excellent modern steel jian or an ancient bronze original are about the same I have chosen to collect the ancient.
Just how the swords were wielded is of course an interest too, although Han technique can only be speculated there would be consistent truths just like in any combat system.

About the making of an ancient reproduction blade, the longer swords in the region of 80cm did not have the waisted blade (the narrowing of the last 1/3 near the tip). This is due to like a gladius they were for close fighting and thrusting (even with an enemy siezed by the hair). If a gladius was stretched to 80-90cm is it really a gladius form?
I would suggest that a well made Han style jian would be a better reproduction in the range you have mentioned.
For the earlier double-edged jian there are some types that get 60-70cm long, even similar to the 'Goujian' sword style of jian can appear this long as rare upper limits. In the early East Zhou the size of a sword was linked to the status of a person so the longest examples are sometimes though ceremonial.
Long bronze sword examples, around 90cm, that would need no enlarging would be the late 3rd century BC Qin long swords of bronze. These are shown in numerous texts and appear like steel jian apart from a more robust graduated cross section.
There is an East Zhou type like the King Guang sword shown above which is also of bronze and in the region of 60-70cm. They have no pommel and so had either a wooden or fully bound hilt built up around the blade tang.
By the Qin-Han period when long bronze swords were being made (to match long steel swords) the shorter-waisted blade type was no longer used. Some Han bronze swords can be very long and sort of a mix of the bronze East Zhou style and the steel jian in appearance in so far as the hilt & pommel. I have a few line drawings in books but rather more examples of the earlier East Zhou styles.
Fine details like lozenge 'loop' rings on the hilt, Taotie masks on the gaurd and inlay were suitable for cast bronze swords but not reproduced in iron. There is one iron dagger with silver inlay (Han) in the tomb of the King of Nanyue, and steel jian with characters on the blade (stating steel quality) but mainly the jade fittings were what added beauty to the steel weapons.
If purely going for a steel sword (since otherwise a reproduction of the bronze sword would look best in bronze) then there are many beautiful Han steel jian that have jade fittings and a reproduction of one of these, jade fittings and all, would do justice to the ancient blades of the period. Since forged/fake 'antique' sword fittings (white jade/dragons) can be found at markets and look quite convincing than either getting them made to order or simply choosing a few good looking ones to attach to a jian would create an authentic Han jian.
I have pictures of such fittings in various books, and I would assume you are familiar with them too.
Here are some on Thomas Chen's website: http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo.html (Han swords and fittings)

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/2852/jxfitssm4.jpg
What you do is down to personal taste after all, and a diamond pattern could be added to steel, but I would adjust the blade type to the longer jian style instead of the waisted & broad bronze type since this is what the Chinese appear to have done with anything much over 60-70cm. Otherwise a shorter East Zhou sword you might find as an interesting comparison to a modern jian anyway if one was made in an authentic style also. They would have their own utility and techniques in combat.
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Peter Bosman




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PostPosted: Thu 13 Mar, 2008 2:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kenneth Blair wrote:
I would love to see modern jian, as I have only seen tourist jian of the modern swords of China.

From what I have heard read and handled, modern 'reproduction' jian suffer from the same phenomena mentioned about modern replicas in general: most are lacking in dynamics. In the case of jian there is a trend for them to be rather long, on the maximum length end of historically correct and that means the makers are not making it easy for themselves to recreate the dynamic qualities of the originals.

The word is that Paul Chen is about to start production of a practical jian produced on the basis of data provided by Scott Rodell. It should be an improvement on the rule and availeable shortly.

Quote:
If I didn't collect ancient bronzes I would very much like a real quality sword but since the prices for an excellent modern steel jian or an ancient bronze original are about the same I have chosen to collect the ancient.


The 'problem' with that is the dilemma presented by using an authentic blade: you are handling something homourable, unique and use will put it at risk.
This means that beyond collecting you are practically forced to aquire a replica: a wooden one for sparring, a quality replica for test cutting and an authentic one for form practice, all as closely matched as possible.

As authentic examples are not all that easlily come by here in the mountains of inland andalucia I have made this the starting point. When I have that one and have analised it, I will source the other two Wink
Maybe I will get infected by the bug and start coveting a bronze 'ancestor' too and maybe a ship with gold will come drifting by in the at present worryingly dry river bordering my land Laughing Out Loud

Kindest regards,

peter
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Bennison N




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PostPosted: Thu 13 Mar, 2008 4:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wobbly point is a technique, not a blade type. Try this - http://forum.grtc.org/viewforum.php?f=4

The Leitai (literally "Beat Platform") challenge match rule system, is a Chinese system of duelling on a raised platform, mainly used for boxing. Weapons matches under this system were often fatal. Jian were very common. The most commonly seen version of Lei Tai started in the Song Dynasty (960-1279 CE), although there was variations seen as far back as during the Qin Dynasty (221-206BC).

A famous recent (20th Century) example is Huo Yuan Jia, whose relevance on this thread is his usual choice of Jian (the Mi Zong Yi sword form must be awesome...) for weapons matches (in most cases...), including the defeat of every Western master in China who would face him in the time roughly around Sun's Revolution. There were saber and rapier teachers there during this time...

Legend wise, Mu Guiying chose her husband after defeating him in a series of 3 duels, before defeating the Khitans of Liao State during the Song Dynasty. These were Jian duels.

Not finished here yet, but I don't want to time out before I get out my notes...

"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius

अजयखड्गधारी
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