[Jean-Carle Hudon]

Leather vs silk vs linen vs wool : Viollet Le Duc in his Encyclopedie Medievale writes that the gambison (in french, which can also be seen under wambison, gambais, gambaison, gamboison, depending on which writer from the middle ages you are reading, he refers to Villehardouin, Du Cange, de Joinville and manuscripts in the Bibliotheque Nationale de France which date to both XIII and XIV th centuries), anyway V. Le Duc writes that gambesons were sometimes made of ''peau'', which litterally is skin, and should be translated today as leather... as for the resistance of leather, V Le Duc reminds us that the last incarnation of the gambeson was the buff leather coat that we all love and admire from the XVI th century, whose sole purpose was protection from the cut.
Now V. Le Duc is an important figure in the XIX th century and its medieval revival. He redesigned and built some of the greatest medieval landmarks, such as the walled city of Carcassone. He has been revisited and corrected by more modern medieval experts on some aspects of his work, and so caution should be in order before accepting all his statements as gospel truth.
This said, he did read the Manuscripts which he cites, and the contemporary authors mentionned, and also studied the work techniques of the period in depth, so I would also be careful in dismissing his affirmations just because my XXth century reenactment experience might allow me to be comfortable without a gambeson, or more comfortable in a cotton gambeson with polyester filling.
The economy of the middle ages was rural, and leather producing animals were consumed. People knew how to work leather and not waste ressources. Our butchers and metal workers still use leather, why wouldn't theirs ?Did people just catch on in the XVIth century that buff leather could be a viable, flexible, alternative to mail ?Does anyone have documented references as to why all of a sudden leather came into its own as protective gear, and if not, is it not fair to conclude along with Chase that leather , as mentionned by V. Le Duc, was used to make gambesons? I for one would go along with it, as long as the style was along the lines of the documents we know , be they 'comic book' bibles or tapestries, as photos seem to be out of the question.
My personal preference would go to silk or linen, the latter for earlier, silk for the the later, if only because the dry cleaning bill won't be as horrendous, but that is preference, not superior historical knowledge.

[David Huggins]

Hi Jean-Carle,

I'd concur with all of your comments. To the best of my own knowledge I know of only two remaining leather garments from N.W Europe in the period in question, from Ireland and Scotland, but with no evidence to suggest they where in military use.

I do think it reasonable to construct a leather undergarment for maille, it certainly prevents chaffing of other undergarments by the maille.

best

Dave

[Steven H]

[Steven H]

A previous thread on leather armours efficacy with videos. As well as some info on buff coats.

I believe that one of the key factors in the advent of the buff coat was large scale ranching without which leather is still a low availability commodity item.

[Dan Howard]

[James Barker]

I should have jumped in here a while ago but just changed jobs while planning a home move


Anyway let’s address some issues raised in this thread. Chase S-R don't get too upset with replies here; people love to debate how to do things. Going back to your original questions and the issues it raised here are a few things: 1) While Bishop Odo is wearing a brow cross hatched item on the BT know one can say for sure what it is. The maille is represented by grey circles and the figures are crude so making a leap of faith that it must be a leather gambeson does not work for the serious researcher. 2) The Normans make a big deal out of the Arabic coton (a silk and raw cotton gambeson) during the first crusade which is of coarse at the end of the 11th century with is a while after the Conquest. 3) First lesson in reenacting is don't trust other peoples research or pictures of reenactors; people like doing stuff they think is cool and that does not always make good history

I don't even believe in wearing a gambeson in 1066; I think the crusade brings that tech back to Europe. I was in the reenactment in 2006 and my kit inspector said I had the best kit he saw in 4 -5 hours of checking kits and I got there towards the end of inspections. Only thing he said he would have added was a broach to close my neck line of the tunic which I have but had forgot that morning.



Then Steven Hand and Allan Senefelder had an interesting debate and I would add this; there are 16th century dueling gloves and 14th/early 15th century gauntlets with linen gloves. The Churburg armor in detail has great photos of the gauntlets and I have pictures of the dueling gloves from Leeds Armory on my website: http://www.historiclife.com/Events/Museums/LeedsRenn.htm



We need to remember leather is just flesh you can cut a hide just as easy as any other flesh; tanning does not make it resistant to cuts. Even extant leather armors were for blunt tournament combat. In earlier periods where leather was worn with maille it was likely to help with the bludgeoning while the maille stopped the cutting.




Jean-Carle Hudon has a good post; gambesons and jacks are often listed as leather covered (check out the Ordinances of Louis XI of France http://www.historiclife.com/Essays/Jacks.htm ) but lets remember these are outer armours and not worn under maille but rather worn over maille or as stand alone armor for poorer people like archers in the 15th century. We always have to think about context and specific uses of items.

Let’s not forget our extant armors:

Black Prince cloth armor (Mid 14th C): Linen inside, Silk/Linen Velvet with silk embroidery outside, raw cotton stuffing

Charles VI cloth armour (Late 14th Early15th C): Linen inside, Silk brocade outside, raw cotton stuffing

Lübeck and the Stendal Jacks (Late 15th C): Linen with raw cotton stuffing

Leeds Jack: Linen with raw cotton stuffing

16th Century Arming Doublet: Linen inside, Silk outside, raw cotton stuffing

There are also requirements from the 14th century to cover gambesons in silk on the outside.


Hope some of this helps

[Raymond Deancona]

Ok. first let me say there ARE examples of leather armor, 17th century Buff coats. There are examples of this leather armor stopping musket balls as well as sword cuts.

[Allan Senefelder]

James, thats a great pic of the dueling glove, really caught the detail!

[Dan Howard]

Leather armor definitely existed. It has been used for thousands of years by many cultures. The question is whether leather was used to make a garment specifically designed to be worn UNDER armor. In Western Europe, except for the buff coat, I think the anser is no - especially during the time period in question. Keep in mind that there is also a big difference between using a fine layer of leather to COVER a textile item and making the entire thing from leather.

[David Huggins]

Hi all,

Just browsing through my copy of Penelope Walton Rogers' CBA Reasearch Report 145 'Cloth and Clothing in Early Anglo-Saxon England' published by the Council for British Archaeology 2007, while doing some research for the 7th 'warrior coat' that I'm making.

Ref' the Sutton Hoo burial quote:

' Nearby was a large leather garment with several buckles, of which one was double pronged, and there was a second leather object, possibly a garment, lower in the coffin(Carver 1998,124-5). With the mail there were extensive folds of tabby weave, thought to be tape for fastening either the mailcoat or the leather gear (SH13) (E.Crowfoot 18983,447-50). The unique pair of gold and garnet clasps from Sutton Hoo were originally thought to be shoulder-fasteners from a Roman leather cuirass (Bruce-Mitford 1978, 532-4), but the attachment loops are not a common form on leather goods and Esther Cameron suggests instead a quilted garment (Cameron 2000,26). According to the De Rebus Becllicis, a garment of Libyan hide and a quilted linen tunic could be worn under armour, and both are illustrated as thigh-length sleeved garments (Summer2003,37-8).'

end quote.

As previously mentioned in this thread, I don't see why the availability of leather for 'armour' for a military elite should be in question, they got the best that their communities could provide in other objects.

best
Dave

[James Barker]

[David Huggins]

Sorry James I'm confused. The quote clearly states that the Libyan hide/quilted combination is worn under maille! The other leather garments mentioned in the quote are not said to be worn under or over maille, just found in the grave of a military elite in what is essentially a martial display of power and wealth. Perhaps you mean the leather gambeson Chase was after in the first instance as 'stand alone' armour.
best
Dave

[Chuck Russell]

Chase: here is a link for you: http://www.theinnerbailey.com/armor.htm http://www.theinnerbailey.com/armorvikingagephotos.htm

David: the author states "possibly and could be" as in it is possible that is what they are for. there is no concrete evidence. they are at best assumptions, no? someone drew up a nice illistration of what ths clasps could ahve been holding that was neither armour nor a garment. it was a decorative chest piece much like the Roman Centurions wore. or it could have been an all weather bath robe hehee

[James Barker]

[Dan Howard]

[Chase S-R]

Ok what about the "rings sewn on to leather" theory for the Bayeux Tapestry. Personally I believe that it is maille as opposed to ''rings on leather" but if it existed than why shouldn't leather be used as a stand alone armour.
I just did some tests I wrapped two layers of linen with wool and quilted it I wrapped this around a one liter bottle and struck it with a A&A sword it protected the bottle, I did the same with some leather with the same result. I also put these on an arrow target I shot these with a 70 lbs bow, neither stopped the arrow fully, but the arrow punctured 5 in into the target when shot at the gambeson, and only 1 in into the leather. I also used a spear with similiar results. To my tests leather was similar to cloth in cutting but better in protecting from the thrust. The leather I used was an old blacksmithing apron.

[Dan Howard]

[Chase S-R]

The original question was about stand alone armour I said gambeson because I couldn't think of another term people got the wrong Idea with gambeson but if I wrote jerkin, brigandine, jack, I figured people were more likely to get the wrong idea. To clarify my tests the gambeson was just that the leather had a layer of wool underneath to simulate a tunic and thus was thicker than the straight gambeson this may have influenced the results, I do plan to do some further tests.
The ring on leather theory I disbelieve, but it has been in several books and at the museum with the bayeux tapestry. I do not believe it existed for the same reason you pointed out.

[Steven H]

[Chase S-R]

thats how my test went