myArmoury.com - Introducing... The Oakeshott

Posts: 1,244 Location: New Glarus, WI

Thu 31 Jan, 2008 2:24 pm

M. Eversberg II wrote:

Any word on a custom scabbard for this one, like the Knight has?

I have a couple of dozen projects on my drawing table in various stages... This is among them. 2008 has already proven an interesting year for me... and it should only get better.

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Jon H.

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Posts: 27

Thu 31 Jan, 2008 2:34 pm

Once again, the Albion team has made me wish for those winning lottery numbers... :p

Although, I'm hoping to make my first purchase from them relatively soon. Now I just need to decide between The Sovereign, The Prince, or The Valkyrja! :D

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Paul Watson

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Posts: 395 Location: Upper Hutt, New Zealand

Thu 31 Jan, 2008 4:25 pm

Why no other historical examples of this sword? Could it be that such a sword was too expensive or difficult to mass produce given it's complex blade geometry? Could it have been a rare commission for someone who could afford such a sword, or perhaps a design that did not find favour for whatever reason? Although this would seem a strange conclusion given Peter's comments about it's ability. It seems to be a hybrid with regards to elements that are present in it's blade design.

Peter if you could compare it's character to another of the Next Gen Line which sword does it most closely resemble in handling characteristics and capability (if any). Does the blade geometry allow it to cut more like a lenticular blade or the blades with more pronounced profiles such as a hollow ground type XVIII.

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Fabrice Cognot

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Posts: 354 Location: Dijon

Thu 31 Jan, 2008 6:59 pm

Thanks Peter. A most interesting post, as (almost ;) ) always.

Peter Johnsson wrote:

The cross section is unusual. I know of no other sword that has a similar blade. I am not convinced, like Oakeshott, that it could be dated as early as the 11th. Rather I would think it belongs to 13th or early 14th C. But who can really tell?

Seconded. 14th IMO.

Details. Details. Little things not necessarily visible on such a well-preserved sword. I think you know what I mean.

Is it possible to see a cross-section of it ?

Anywa, this Albion sword is really, really pleasant (judging from the pics). And it's a good thing to know it is available, knowing the good EO thought of the original. Not only it will help all swords enthusiasts to experience what a nice thing it is, but maybe it will also help to get a glimpse of what Oakeshott thought good in a sword.

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Fabrice Cognot

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Posts: 354 Location: Dijon

Thu 31 Jan, 2008 7:03 pm

Paul Watson wrote:

Why no other historical examples of this sword?

Simply not known yet maybe. There are tens, maybe hundreds (or even thousands) of museum collections (not even mentionning private collections) that haven't been published yet. Research is still going on.

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Hugo Voisine

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Posts: 336

Thu 31 Jan, 2008 8:44 pm

That sword is just awesome. What a cool blade. :cool:

I would like to buy one, but first I have to get the Valkyria !

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Jody A

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Posts: 35 Location: Vancouver, BC

Fri 01 Feb, 2008 8:32 pm

Peter Johnsson wrote:

The sole reason to design the Chevalier, was that the great blade of A459 was available. It seemed such a shame not to use it for other sword designs of the same general time period.
The inspiration for the Chevalier is of course the famous miniature of the kneeling knight in the Westminster Psalter from around 1250.

As I now have the dynamical data of the A 459, another style of hilt can be developed that fits the time period and provides the same authentic handling properties as the "Oakeshott" in the NG line. It comes down to a preference in aesthetics, what sword you feel most attracted to.
I am presently working on the waxes for the Chevalier. The pommel is finished, but I might rework the guard. Perhaps it will end up looking less than I suggested in the concept drawing and more like more like the guard in the miniature in the Westminster Psalter. We shall see...

Peter - I just want to say how thrilled I am that you and Albion are doing this sword, both for the inspiration from the Westminster Psalter (which has long been my favourite image from the period) and now even more so that you are pairing it with the beautiful Oakeshott blade. And if you moved the guard design back toward the Westminster Psalter guard, that would be even more exciting! However, wherever you end up taking the guard, this sword is definitely going to find its way into my home when you are finished ... keep up the great work!

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Chris Lampe

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Posts: 211 Location: United States

Sat 02 Feb, 2008 7:11 am

With the exception of the Kingmaker, this has been Albion's most anticipated sword for me and it came out very well!

As I studied it, I kept thinking there was something not quite right about it and I finally figured out that the final product doesn't have the two handle risers that are on the concept image. Could someone have those added to their Oakeshott sword?

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Mikko Kuusirati

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Posts: 1,084 Location: Finland

Sat 02 Feb, 2008 11:18 am

Chris Lampe wrote:

With the exception of the Kingmaker, this has been Albion's most anticipated sword for me and it came out very well!

As I studied it, I kept thinking there was something not quite right about it and I finally figured out that the final product doesn't have the two handle risers that are on the concept image. Could someone have those added to their Oakeshott sword?

You know, I was a bit disappointed by that, too, at first. But their absence is growing on me; I'm beginning to think the severely plain grip draws more attention to the intricately designed blade, and provides it with a bit of nicely balancing contrast.

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Peter Johnsson

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Posts: 1,757 Location: Storvreta, Sweden

Sat 02 Feb, 2008 11:57 am

Mikko Kuusirati wrote:

Chris Lampe wrote:

With the exception of the Kingmaker, this has been Albion's most anticipated sword for me and it came out very well!

As I studied it, I kept thinking there was something not quite right about it and I finally figured out that the final product doesn't have the two handle risers that are on the concept image. Could someone have those added to their Oakeshott sword?

You know, I was a bit disappointed by that, too, at first. But their absence is growing on me; I'm beginning to think the severely plain grip draws more attention to the intricately designed blade, and provides it with a bit of nicely balancing contrast.

Mikko, this is exactly the reason that I in the end wanted the grip without further details.
The blade, guard grip and pommel meet better without further distraction.

When you see the sword with your own eyes, perhaps you will appreciate the play of volumes between convex and concave surface. The grip itself has certain changes in shapes and volume from guard to pommel: flat oval following the dimension of the guard, swelling to almost circular at the middle going down to a narrow neck towards the pommel.
Adding a double riser to the middle did not add anything but rather disturbed the flow. To my eyes at east.
In this case I decided to follow the rule "less is more".

The grip is also a bit longer than your typical single hander. Adding central risers to this grip, you´d have to decide if they were to be placed off center towards the guard (would look a bit strange perhaps) or towards the pommel (would look very strange), depending on how you want to hold the sword. Placing the risers in the middle would have made them meet your hand in a less than optimal way. Generally, you want risers as support in the middle of your hand, between your fingers or at the heel of your hand. Not underneath a knuckle. That will chafe and possibly create a hot spot.

The swelling of the grip in the middle fills the hand, providing a secure purchase (you can´t really see this in the photos). It is like the NG Knight in that regard. The Oakeshott is also a sword whose heft is not intrusive. You do not get a feeling of loosing the sword when you swing it. Therefore, you do not need risers to help hold on to, or control the sword.
Sometimes I add risers to swords anyway, but only when I think they add to the visual appearance of a sword. In this case I did not feel they made the sword better, but rather the contrary.

I was halfway expecting to hear words of disappointment on this point, as is normally the case when something is left out or changed from the concept drawing. As I develop a sword I have a responsibility to try to make it fulfill its potential to the best of my ability, and that sometimes involves deviating from initial concept, painful and frustrating as that may be.

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M. Eversberg II

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Posts: 1,435 Location: California, Maryland, USA

Sat 02 Feb, 2008 12:03 pm

I think this is one of my favorites. It's unique without being flashy.

M.

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Charles Adams

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Posts: 26 Location: Mars, Pennsylvania

Sat 02 Feb, 2008 1:01 pm

After waiting for this one, for over a year, I can say that it looks pretty amazing The only thing I can think of that would make it more visually appealing would be, hmmm...how do I say this, a rise in the middle of the guard like on the Baron. Not a rise in the grip, as noted in an earlier post, but a high point in the middle of the guard that flows outward to the ends. Like I said, look at the Baron to see what I mean. The original sword that this sword is based on probably does not have this and therefore was most likely not even considered. Anyway just my 2 cents, but what a lovely sword she is. I think I'm going to have to order this with a green grip!!!!

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Peter Johnsson

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Posts: 1,757 Location: Storvreta, Sweden

Sat 02 Feb, 2008 1:08 pm

Fabrice Cognot wrote:

...
Is it possible to see a cross-section of it ?
...

Hello Fabrice,

Certainly!
This drawing below is not exact in scale, but is an attempt to show what goes on.
A&B are sections of "The Oakeshott".
A is a section is close to the base, B is of course close to the point.
Note especially how the concave bevel transitions into cutting edge.

C is a section of a "normal" sword of similar size and mass (or a bit heavier).

Note that the sturdiness of the cutting sharpness (the part beyond line x-x) is not that different (if at all) between the hollow ground blade and the fullered one. This is the part of the blade where the majority of damage is seen: most nicks you see in old blades rarely reach deeper than some 2 mm into the blade.

Note also that the "normal" blade does not reach the same thickness (line y-y) and might still be slightly heavier.
Thickness provides stiffness.

The concave bevel *might* reduce friction in the cut, but I think that is a marginal effect and perhaps mostly theoretical.
A good lenticular, or apple seed edge bevel will also be low in friction.

The major reason to take the trouble to make such a complex blade, is to get a relatively high stiffness with a minimum of material, I think.
It is more work intensive to make and more troublesome to produce.

Another reason might be how such a blade react in heat treat. A thin edge and thin cross section will react favorably to heat treating as cooling will be quick in the thin parts (a greater surface to mass ratio is also helpful), leading more of the austenite to transform into martensite.
That would impart higher strength, providing the steel is of enough quality to respond well to the treatment.

Ramblings and speculations...

;)

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Felix R.

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Posts: 555 Location: Germany

Sat 02 Feb, 2008 1:28 pm

Hello all,

I must say that the blade profile is really impressive in this sword. If put together with a more appealing hilt (Chevalier), this would be one of the "I must have" Albions of the future for me. But even the way the Oakeshott is, it is really nice to look at. I don´t think we need to speak of the performance. I wasn´t disappointes with any Albion by now.

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Luka Borscak

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Posts: 2,307 Location: Croatia

Sat 02 Feb, 2008 2:26 pm

I love the simplicity of its hilt combined with such beautiful and complex blade. It awakes a crusader in me. ;) Simple and elegant but brutally effective... If I only had such money...

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Vincent Le Chevalier

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Posts: 870 Location: Paris, France

Sat 02 Feb, 2008 2:45 pm

Peter Johnsson wrote:

The concave bevel *might* reduce friction in the cut, but I think that is a marginal effect and perhaps mostly theoretical.
A good lenticular, or apple seed edge bevel will also be low in friction.

The major reason to take the trouble to make such a complex blade, is to get a relatively high stiffness with a minimum of material, I think.

I agree with that. The effect of the hollow grind on friction is not obvious at all, even in theory... Because the blade may be thinner at the very beginning of the cut, but once the edge has penetrated in the target there is the steep ridge to force through. And as you showed the ridge(s) can be bigger on hollow-ground blades...

The effect on the weight/stiffness relationship is more obvious and desirable in its own right.

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Fabrice Cognot

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Posts: 354 Location: Dijon

Sat 02 Feb, 2008 2:54 pm

Peter Johnsson wrote:

Hello Fabrice,

Certainly!

Many thanks :)
It 's quite what I thought. And IMHO tends to indicate a later date (not just through mere physical aspects). Though I'm not an expert.

Peter Johnsson wrote:

The major reason to take the trouble to make such a complex blade, is to get a relatively high stiffness with a minimum of material, I think.
It is more work intensive to make and more troublesome to produce.

True :) I believe stiffness is what it was aimed at. A reactive, stiff, nervous blade (when in the bind). Perhaps even something made with such a purpose (ie the bind) in mind...who knows ?

Did you notice any specific 'production evidence' (like fold marks/grind marks/metal 'fibers' marks) on the original (if its current preservation state permits - and if you see what I mean :confused: ) ?

Peter Johnsson wrote:

Ramblings and speculations...

;)

Oh yes. But we do like to ramble and speculate, don't we ? :p

Thanks again

Fab

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Mikko Kuusirati

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Posts: 1,084 Location: Finland

Sun 03 Feb, 2008 10:05 am

Peter Johnsson wrote:

Mikko, this is exactly the reason that I in the end wanted the grip without further details.
The blade, guard grip and pommel meet better without further distraction.

When you see the sword with your own eyes, perhaps you will appreciate the play of volumes between convex and concave surface. The grip itself has certain changes in shapes and volume from guard to pommel: flat oval following the dimension of the guard, swelling to almost circular at the middle going down to a narrow neck towards the pommel.
Adding a double riser to the middle did not add anything but rather disturbed the flow. To my eyes at east.
In this case I decided to follow the rule "less is more".

The grip is also a bit longer than your typical single hander. Adding central risers to this grip, you´d have to decide if they were to be placed off center towards the guard (would look a bit strange perhaps) or towards the pommel (would look very strange), depending on how you want to hold the sword. Placing the risers in the middle would have made them meet your hand in a less than optimal way. Generally, you want risers as support in the middle of your hand, between your fingers or at the heel of your hand. Not underneath a knuckle. That will chafe and possibly create a hot spot.

The swelling of the grip in the middle fills the hand, providing a secure purchase (you can´t really see this in the photos). It is like the NG Knight in that regard. The Oakeshott is also a sword whose heft is not intrusive. You do not get a feeling of loosing the sword when you swing it. Therefore, you do not need risers to help hold on to, or control the sword.
Sometimes I add risers to swords anyway, but only when I think they add to the visual appearance of a sword. In this case I did not feel they made the sword better, but rather the contrary.

I was halfway expecting to hear words of disappointment on this point, as is normally the case when something is left out or changed from the concept drawing. As I develop a sword I have a responsibility to try to make it fulfill its potential to the best of my ability, and that sometimes involves deviating from initial concept, painful and frustrating as that may be.

Well, I'll have to call it an unqualified success. There's time for fancier hilts on later models, might as well let this first one be a full-blown showcase for the blade. Gods know it deserves it. :)

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David Stokes

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Posts: 250

Mon 04 Feb, 2008 12:53 pm

I gotta say this is one of the best lookin swords in the next gen line!
its the embodiment of elegance!
fairly simple looking at first glance, but then all the little details start to pop

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Addison C. de Lisle

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Posts: 614 Location: South Carolina

Tue 19 Aug, 2008 9:05 pm

Does anyone know if this sword is suited to 1.33 sword and buckler?

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