[Ransom Prestridge]

Hello fellow forumites,

I wanted to ask a question regarding a bit of blasphemy this morning.

For the past year I’ve been tempted to order an Albion Yeoman or Sovereign through Christian Fletcher with one small modification: a scent-stopper pommel (or any kind of longer pommel), instead of the historical wheel pommel.

I emailed him about it last year or so and he said that any time you change a pommel on a sword there can be unforeseen differences in handling characteristics-- which I understand completely-- and it made me hesitate to buy such a wonderful Albion only to possibly ruin it by asking for something erroneous, so I dropped the idea for a while.

Lately the thought is starting to appeal to me again, so I’ve decided to ask the community if they’ve ever seen such a bastardization before (the pun is only slightly ironic). Anyone seen a modification similar to it? Tried it yourselves? What were the consequences? Any pearls of wisdom for me or frantic exclamations of “Don’t do it, lad!”?

(Disclaimer: Yes, gripping a type XIV in a hand and a half grip, which is what I want to do, is completely un-historical, and Oakeshott and the scribes behind I:33 are likely turning over in their graves. But the length is perfect for one of my stature to use as such and trying to grip my Windless Oakeshott Type XIV that way, even with the round pommel in the way, just feels right to me.)

[Ken Jay]

My take...Get what you want. I don't think changing the pommel on one of the short bladed Albion XIV's will much alter their handling or performance. You might have a different experience with a longer and more slender blade. If Albion will do it - go for it.

[Anders Backlund]

Well, congratulations on a daring initiative, says I. It's always fun to meet someone with an interest in a-historical experimentation.

(A small hobby of mine is to cut-and-paste Albion swords into Paint and move the components around to see how they look on other blades. Let's just say I know where you're coming from. )

Now, I'm not an expert on these things, but so long as the pommel serves it's purpose as a counterweight, I don't see how changing the shape would "ruin" the sword. The important part is that the weight is comparable to the original pommel, yes? It might definitely give it a different character, but that can be said about any other Albion with varied hilt configuration. (Prince/Squire, Kingmaker/Burgundian, etc.) And, heck, that might be what you are after to begin with anyway.

But, as I said, I'm only an educated amateur. If you really want to know, I think Peter Johnsson should be able to give you a more informed answer. He designed the darn things, after all.

[Sam Barris]

There's always this:

http://www.myArmoury.com/review_ae_bast14c.html

Not an exact match, since the hilt is longer than a Type XIV's would be, and the cross section is more like a Type XVI. This particular weapon never made it into production. One found its way into my collection anyway, though. I must say, it's a fun little sword. I'd put the Type XIVa firmly in the "never was, but should have been" category.

I guess it really depends on what you want out of your weapon. The problems seem to crop up when people utilize fantasy elements in their sword and then feel compelled to invent a historical sounding rationale for it; the "ninja-to" is an excellent example of this widespread phenomenon. Some people get so defensive about their little fantasies. However, you seem to have no illusions of historical accuracy, which is good. If you want a Type XIV with room for an extra hand, who's to stop you? It wouldn't be right in the context of I.33, but it's 2008, after all. You're hardly going to end up dead on a battlefield for tweaking the hilt of your sword.

That said, perhaps one of Angus Trim's new swords would be a more cost effective venue for experimentation. He has two Type XIV swords on Christian Fletcher's site and they're both very impressive. I've personally always seen Albion as the option when nothing less than strict accuracy will do, and the AT/CF route as the option for when you want to let your imagination run free for a while.

You'll have to post some pictures when you get the finished product. I'd love to see what you come up with.

[Tim Lison]

I hate to say it, but I don't think that changing the pommel to a scent stopper will allow you to grip a Yeoman or Sovereign with both hands. The Albion type XIV swords have a pretty short grip, I sold my Sovereign for that very reason. I couldn't see getting more than an extra inch for your grip out of it. That would ptobably still be to small of a grip to use with two (or 1.5) hands.

[R D Moore]

Ransom,

Here's a post by Michael Tinker Pierce from SFI. The part about polar moment may be of particular concern to you:

" I'm making this post 'sticky' like the other posts on cutting and harmonics, as I believe it too is fundamental to sword performance.

OK- I'm stronger on the concept than the specifics, and in fact have been using this term innapropriately! Thinking about it, when I have referred to a sword as having a "High Polar Moment' I believe that I should actually have been saying 'Low Polar Moment.' This isn't going to be a perfect description- we're still sussing some of this out...

So what the heck is 'Polar Moment?' With regards to swords the 'Poles' are the tip and tip of the pommel. If the sword's tip is 36" from the strong hand (the point of rotation) then the opposite pole is the tip of the pommel- usually only a few inches from the POR. The type and amount of distal and profile taper and the weight of the hilt (particularly the pommel) are what determines a swords 'Polar Moment.'

A case ito illustrate the point are two swords that I made recently- the Falchion and the Type XVII. Both swords have recently been seen on this forum so pics should be easy to find. The Falchion has a great deal of mass near the point because the blade actually gets wider towards the point- reverse profile taper. It does distal taper significantly, but not enough to off-set this expansion in width. The Type XVII has extreme profile taper and has a hex cross section for much of it's length. The Falchion weighs 2lb14oz and the Type XVII weighs 3lb4oz. Yet the Type XVII is universally percieved as being 'lighter' than the falchion. Both swords were handled by dozens of people and they all had the same reaction. This is because of Polar Moment. The Falchion with it's heavy tip and pommel has a high Polar Moment- it's mass is distributed more equally along it's length. The short distance from the POR (Point of Rotation) to the pommel decreases this effect but not significantly as there is relatively so much mass at the opposite pole (the tip of the sword.) This makes the sword slow in rotation. On the contrary the type XVII with it's extreme profile taper has only a tiny percentage of it's overall weight at the tip, and again the weight of the pommel is relatively close to the POR. This means that the greatest percentage of the sword's mass is located near the POR- the sword rotates easier as most of the mass that you are moving is close to the POR so you have good 'leverage.' Another way to say this is that the sword has a small 'Moment of Inertia' (MOI) towards the tip. The Type XVII has a Low Polar Moment, making it fell handier- thus it is percieved as lighter because it is easier to move and change direction of the point. Savvy?

So- take two swords with the same length of blade and the same weight and Center of Gravity (COG) For argument lets say that both swords have 32" blades and balance four inches from the cross. One sword is made from 3/16 inch stock and has little profile and no distal taper with a heavy pommel to draw the COG back to four inches. The classic 'sharpened bar' type of sword. The other sword is 3/8" thick at the base but has a good amount of profile and distal taper. This sword doesn't need a heavy pommel to draw the COG back because of the distal taper, so the swords are of equal weight. Despite both swords weighing the same and having the same center of gravity the second sword will feel lively in the hand, and the first sword will feel like a club. Since it has little profile or distal taper it has a much greater percentage of it's mass farther from the POR- it has a high 'Moment of Inertia' (MOI) at the tip compared to the other sword, so the tip moves slower making the sword feel heavy and clumsy. This sword has a High Polar Moment. The second sword's mass is concentrated near the POR- it has a low MOI at the point or a Low Polar Moment. It feels lively and quick in the hand, and most people will tell you that it is lighter than the first sword even if intellectually they know the swords are the same weight! The second sword could in fact be heavier than the first sword and still feel lighter to most people because of the ease of moving the point.

This is also why a shorter sword often feels 'handier' than a longer sword of the same weight- It has a shorter 'Moment Arm' which moves the tip's mass closer to the POR- reducing it's Polar Moment.

A note- when we say the tip moves easier and faster, what we are talking about is accelleration. An axe can move bloody fast at the end of the swing, but the mass of the head being at the end of the Momeent Arm means that it accellerates more slowly.

The practical effects of this from what Gus and I have observed- the sword feels lively in the hand, tends to be more forgiving in it's Harmonic Balance and tends to have a long COP. All good things... "



I don't think this violates any copyright laws since it was posted on a forum. If it does, I sincerely apologize. Please let me know and I will delete the post.

[David Sutton]

I don't think I would be very comfortable doing this type of alteration on an Albion sword, IMO they are just too good a finnished product to use as experamental material. I would go with Sam's suggstion and perhaps use an Angus Trim blade for the conversion.

However if you were to convert a Yeoman/Sheriff or soveriegn blade something to think about might be the length of the blade. The Albion Type XIV's only have a 28" blade IIRC. For a two handed grip that is a very short blade. Holding a sword with two hands actually shortens the reach of your arms and, taking the short length of the blade into account, might inhibit any fighting style quite a bit. Also using two hands on what is already a short and pretty fast sword might make the handling of the sword decidedly strange.

You say that gripping a type XIV like this is perfect for you're stature, I'm not very big myself, about 5 feet 5 inches tall and of average build ( a little over weight though ) but if I grip my Squire Line C13th Knightly Sword (31" bade IIRC) two handed it feels awkward and clumsy. Single handed it is a very nice sword with execellent handling.

In the end though its going to be your sword so you should have it how you want it.

[Ransom Prestridge]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the encouragement and thoughts, both! I’ve often thought that, more than likely, a relatively untrained sword enthusiast like me would not be able to tell the difference with a pommel switch. Then again, I can tell the difference between a well-balanced sword and a not-so-well balanced sword, and that one caveat is what has always made me hesitate. And I know what you mean, Anders! I’ve never really played with them in Paint, but my mind has certainly wandered.

Thanks for a link to that sword, Sam—I don’t think I’ve come across it before. Definitely has the longer grip, which I prefer (though putting a longer grip on a Yeoman or somesuch is something I’ve ignored, since extending tangs and the like can be even more troublesome than a pommel switch, and I want to keep things simple). And funny that you mentioned Angus Trim, since one blade that I have seen and is almost perfect to what I want is the one here that Fletcher/Trim are doing for Valiant Armory: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...13681340d9

The blade length is perfect and the pommel is great too, but I actually really like the wide flare at the base of type XIV’s. I don’t know why, but I guess it just matches my aesthetics. According to Gus that’s one of his type XVI’s, and I do like that blade type (I have an Albion Crecy with the longer version of that type). His last post in that thread had some VERY interesting things to say about that blade. According the Valiant website, they should be announcing information regarding the “Bristol” soon, and that may be a good possibility for me.

Thanks for the tip, Tim! I’ve been taking close looks at the measurements regarding the grip by subtracting blade length from total length, but it’s hard to judge how much of the pommel takes it up from pictures. My Windlass type XIV has a handle (not counting the pommel) of just a hair over 4 inches, and if I scoot my hand up a little and put my index finger along the crossguard, I can grip the last inch of the handle and the crossguard together with my left hand. It’s not a comfortable grip because of the wheel pommel, and my hands do cover the entirety of the hilt from crossguard to pommel, but I always thought that a skinnier pommel may alleviate some of that. I have noticed, I think, that the Albion grips seem a bit shorter than that, so you may have a very good point.

Interesting post by Michael, RD. I’ve seen Polar moment discussed ‘round the net, but I don’t think I’ve come across that particular discussion before. Thanks for bringing it to my attention!

I know what you mean, David. I’m about 2 inches shorter than you, and I’ve often thought about the problem of reach. Maybe it’s my lack of formal training with an instructor (I belong to the "Bookworm School" of fencing ) and the fact that I don’t spar with people that often other than one friend of mine (which must be amusing to watch, as he’s over a foot taller than I), but I’ve always found two handed swings easier for me—they just feel better. My little Windless is lots of fun to use one-handed, and I do enjoy using it, but I guess my heart just lies with a double grip, despite the shortcomings of gripping a short blade as such.

[Anders Backlund]

[Ransom Prestridge]

You hit a good point about the katana. My origins in sword fascination began there, and then I became interested in Wesern martial arts. I suppose my affinity for a two-handed grip stems from that, primarily. I'm not really going to attempt to do Munenori moves with a European sword, but I suppose that doesn't mean that I can't have the spirit of both in my own free-play.

[Dan Dickinson]

Ransom, changing the pommel to a scent stopper essentially lengthens the handle and puts most of the counterweight mass further back (which will change how the sword handles). Personally I would avoid (in my opinion) "ruining" a Yoeman this way. However, as others have suggested, I would take a look at Angus Trim's new maker's mark swords. Christian Fletcher should be able to supply you with both the normal and a scent stopper pommel. Then you should be able to have the sword as it was designed, and when the mood strikes you, you can simply take the hex nut off, swap out the round for the scentstopper pommel and have your specialty sword.......i.e have your cake and eat it too
I have often had fun swapping out the components on atrims in different combinations. It's an easy way to see how different combinations would look and handle.
The only concern might be the length of the tang, as the scentstopper might require more room. Talk to Christian, he'll know.
Hope this helps,
Dan

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

[Addison C. de Lisle]

Ransom, have you taken a look at the Mercenary? It's a pretty short longsword (at least for me, being 6' 4"), but it is very fast, very pointy, has the wideness at the base of the blade, and a scent stopper pommel.

Personally, I wouldn't want to mess around with an Albion sword on the basis the Peter Johnson designed the sword to have specific handling characteristics, with the shape and weight of the pommel in mind. Also, they are so well executed that it seems almost like a waste. I personally think that an Atrim blade would be a better choice. But it is your decision; I can only offer you my point of view. What's really most important, in the end, is that you're happy with your sword, and if modifying the Albion does it for you, then go for it

[Craig Peters]

The thought of re-hilting an XIV with a scent stopper pommel makes me cringe. It really does. It seems badly out of place, and I think it will just look bad, no matter what you do.

Ransom, I would like to second Addison's suggestion. The Mercenary, Constable or Castellan are natural choices for someone shorter who wants to use a long sword, and since XVas are one of the most agile types out there, you shouldn't have problems handling them. (In fact, you could even save cash and go with a sharpened Late 15th C Bastard sword from Albion's Squire line instead). The thing to consider too is that there were undoubtedly men in the Middle Ages who were your stature that used long swords, rather than Frankenstein swords. If they could manage them, I'm sure you can too. Something else to consider too is your fitness level: if you're not in good shape, you'll find handling any sword to be more difficult. But, if you are in good shape, or make the effort to get into good shape, you'll have far fewer problems when wielding a sword. Just because you're on the shorter side does not preclude you from wielding true long swords.

[Ransom Prestridge]

[Tim Lison]

I know a lot of people have already metioned Atrim swords, but have you considered his Maker's Mark triple fullered type XIII? It's total length is only 40 inches and it has a bit more in the way of grip. Just a thought.....

[Curt Dunham]

Here is a rather long thread about changing the pommel on a Windlass Medieval Short Sword (Sword of Dracula) with pictures and some comments on handling:

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t...ht=dracula

[Craig Peters]

[Felix R.]

When you like the wider blades look and also want to have the possibility to grip it with two hands, you can perhaps consider Albions Mercenary and alike swords. These are type XV though, but they are wide and comparatively short. ARMA shows the 15th cent longsword (the blunt Mercenary) in some sword and buckler work too.

[Ransom Prestridge]

Yea, I looked at the triple fuller one, but also the two ATrim “flared” blades on Christian’s site. They have the shape I’m looking for, but are still a bit too long for what I have in mind, but not by too much. However, if I go that route, I’ll likely try the triple-fullered Type XIII. Thanks for the suggestion Tim!

That’s an interesting read, Curt. Other than the points about balance, they had some clever ways to go about what they were doing, and it’s neat to see how others have fared.

I guess my main reasoning, Craig, is that I’m not really a purist. I’m looking to experiment with blades and styles, and a maybe do a merger of sorts for myself, even if it goes a little too far into the realm of fantasy. I don’t really plan to take whatever comes out of this endeavor and master anything or attempt a scholarly bit of research. I’m after this because I think I would enjoy having it and I don’t mind experimenting to get the sword I’m looking for. Maybe it won’t fit in one niche or another and would perform sub par in specific styles and schools of thought, but that doesn’t really bother me. Maybe it’ll end up doing bits and pieces of both well? That’s not my main objective, but it would be a nice result.

Thanks for the suggestion, Felix. Since that makes three, I believe, different people suggesting that sword to me, I may need to give it another glance as a future purchase! I’ll probably find that I like it more than I thought I would.