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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Tue 09 Mar, 2004 3:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

E.B. Erickson wrote:
According to local scuttlebutt, it won't be playing at all here in the Kingdom of Thailand.
--ElJay


Hi Eljay

Why ? Has the government banned it ?

P.S. Well said , Dave .... your closing point was right on the money !

Mac

'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
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Shawn Duncanson




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PostPosted: Tue 09 Mar, 2004 7:21 pm    Post subject: Sweet movie         Reply with quote

*a few small spoilers*

Saw it a bit ago and loved it, I had read reviews and was very very pleasantly suprised to find that the media had no idea what they were talking about. The movie was just as I had pictured many of the scenes in the life of Christ as I read the scriptures. I watched an interview in which Mel Gibson was talking about the movie and one thing he said I believe hit home hard, "My critics dont really have a problem with my movie, but what they do have is a problem with the message of the Gospels (or new testament I cant remember the exact quote)" This is exact impression I got after seeing the movie. It was very accurate, with a few Catholic traditions thrown in but they were very well done and did add much to the movie. Plus these traditions are bound to have a bit of truth in them seeing as how the church clings to them. The message of the Gospel is offensive in many ways Christ says so in a great quote where he says "I did not come to the world to bring peace but a sword, I will set father against son...( again not exact quote but very close, I am not at home where I can look this up), but anti semetic it is definately not.

So ah what I'm saying is the media is over doing thier job and sensationalizing a few stupid ideas as usual to make money. It has gotten so bad I cannot even watch the news anymore due to their diseption and spinning of truth. Its truly sad.

PS- Go see this movie.

PPS- did he Satan Baby freak you guys out too?

Not all who wander are lost.


Last edited by Shawn Duncanson on Tue 09 Mar, 2004 9:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jeremiah Swanger




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PostPosted: Tue 09 Mar, 2004 9:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Sweet movie         Reply with quote

Shawn Duncanson wrote:
Saw it a bit ago and loved it, I had read reviews and was very very pleasantly suprised to find that the media had no idea what they were talking about. The movie was just as I had pictured many of the scenes in the life of Christ as I read the scriptures. I watched an interview in which Mel Gibson was talking about the movie and one thing he said I believe hit home hard, "My critics dont really have a problem with my movie, but what they do have is a problem with the message of the Gospels (or new testament I cant remember the exact quote)" This is exact impression I got after seeing the movie. It was very accurate, with a few Catholic traditions thrown in but they were very well done and did add much to the movie. Plus these traditions are bound to have a bit of truth in them seeing as how the church clings to them. The message of the Gospel is offensive in many ways Christ says so in a great quote where he says "I did not come to the world to bring peace but a sword, I will set father against son...( again not exact quote but very close, I am not at home where I can look this up), but anti semetic it is definately not.

So ah what I'm saying is the media is over doing thier job and sensationalizing a few stupid ideas as usual to make money. It has gotten so bad I cannot even watch the news anymore due to their diseption and spinning of truth. Its truly sad.

PS- Go see this movie.


It might be a good idea to post a "Spoilers Warning" for that PPS, but, for the record, yeah, that was certainly unsettling. But I think it was an excellent illustration of the soul of the torturers.

"Rhaegar fought nobly.
Rhaegar fought valiantly.
Rhaegar fought honorably.
And Rhaegar died."

- G.R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire
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Shawn Duncanson




Location: Spokane Wa
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PostPosted: Tue 09 Mar, 2004 9:19 pm    Post subject: ok         Reply with quote

done
Not all who wander are lost.
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E.B. Erickson
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PostPosted: Wed 10 Mar, 2004 4:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Thomas,
I'm not sure why the word is that it won't be shown here in Thailand. My first guess is that since the movie is about an overtly Christian subject, the Buddhist influences in the government and culture wouldn't want it shown. The Sangha (the controlling body of Thai Buddhism) has recently been making noises about Western materialism and western Culture (including Christianity) eroding Thai Culture and Buddhist values. So a ban of this movie could be a part of an attempt to lessen the effect of the West in Thailand. Movies here have a LOT of influence, especially among the youth.

Having said that, remember that all I've heard is rumor. I think that if the movie is popular and makes a lot of money, it'll show up here sooner or later! It seems like we get the Big Losers and the Big Winners over here, but not too much in between.

--ElJay
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Jonathan Henzi




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PostPosted: Wed 10 Mar, 2004 5:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glad to see a discussion where the bible is being used to decern the true nature of the film. To asess the text a little more in depth, a bible commentary on one of the gospel accounts will help anyone through the original greek and hebrew texts as to the context of the english word translation. I did see the movie, I think that the movie as a whole brings the true meaning of Christ's ministry here on earth. We can nit-pick at to what historical accuracy means or we can take the movie for what it's saying. I was greatly comforted to see the resurrection portrayed. That is the only comfort we as Christians have from the feeling of guilt we all should have for nailing Him to the cross. In that one instance Mel brings the whole movie to fulfillment. The scenes of torture to the scenes of jesus's ministry, Mother Mary, disciples, Mary magdalene, I mean all of it was fulfilled at the resurrection . Just look at the epistles in the bible. Without the resurrection the Christian faith would be meaningless. Yes Jesus did die and yes it was a momentous occasion, But the climax is the resurrection, it's there where the power of the gospel lies. I would like to see from Mel more movies with religious content, not necessarily from the bible, but it will be interesting to see what he does next.and how he asserts his faith to be a witness to others.
Sincerely,
Jonathan
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Gary Venable




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PostPosted: Wed 10 Mar, 2004 6:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think one of Mel Gibsons comments which I thought should have put to rest the Anti-Semitism accusations was the one part of the movie he appeared in. When you see Christ being nail to the cross it is Mel Gibsons hands which are nailing them. The movie was powerful on many levels. Even without the core message the movie was flat gorgeous as a piece of art. The message just makes it so much more powerful.

****Spoiler****

To me one of the most powerful scenes was when Jesus was falling under the weight of the cross and the movie was pannig between that scene and a scene of him falling as a child. In both his mother was running to her child. As a parent who deeply loves his kids it really brought home this verse.

Quote:
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whodoever believed in him would no perish but have have everlasting life.
Gospel of John 3:16


It makes me ask: How much love does it take to let your own child suffer and die to save someone else. Who do I love that much......

There were many powerful scenes in the movie but that one really hit home for me.

Gary
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B. Stark
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PostPosted: Wed 10 Mar, 2004 12:50 pm    Post subject: WOW         Reply with quote

I haven't had the opportunity to see this yet. Still planning to though. It's pleasing to see an actual intelligent discussion being made about what exactly this movie's about. The realization that perhaps the mainstream media has some bit of a problem with Christianity and Christ. I've almost felt as though a great amount of implied (but not ligitimate) opinion has been fosterred by the big three networks as well as CNN and Fox to foment resentment against this movie being shown let alone made. That by *their* suggestion people should be protesting in the streets. Prevent it from being seen. It's not working Laughing Out Loud ! Already the tone has changed from some subtle refferrence that Gibsons insane and so is anyone who see's this film and likes it to a more neutral tone. It's making money and they just can't figure out why! It's good to see. Media cynicism losing ground. I'm sure this movie is going to hit home hard for me, I'm looking forward to it.
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Leah F.




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PostPosted: Wed 10 Mar, 2004 2:29 pm    Post subject: Silly people         Reply with quote

I am getting so tired of people missing the whole point of the movie. (doesn't surprise me much though)
They are going on and on about "who really killed Jesus?"
Which is completely beside th point. It doesn't really matter who killed Jesus. The main purpose of God sending His Son to earth, was to die. We NEED a savior. Jesus wanted to die for us. That is what needed to happen. The only way to the Father is through Christ.
Blessings,
Leah F.
age 16 Blush

All we have to decide, is what to do with the time that is given to us.
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David McElrea




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PostPosted: Wed 10 Mar, 2004 3:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Leah wrote:
Quote:
I am getting so tired of people missing the whole point of the movie. (doesn't surprise me much though)
They are going on and on about "who really killed Jesus?"
Which is completely beside th point. It doesn't really matter who killed Jesus. The main purpose of God sending His Son to earth, was to die. We NEED a savior. Jesus wanted to die for us. That is what needed to happen. The only way to the Father is through Christ.
Blessings,
Leah F.
age 16


Well said Leah. I would add with Jonathan, that he came to die and rise again-- not only was his death sacrifice, but his resurrection was victory over sin, death, and the enemy.

I enclose a portion of the Anglo-Saxon poem "The Dream of the Rood" (Rood meaning "cross").

Hwæt, I will recount the best of dreams,
which I dreamed in the middle of the night,
after speech-bearers turned to rest.
It seemed to me that I saw a most wondrous tree,
5 the brightest of rood-trees, extend aloft
encircled by light. That sign was completely
covered with gold; jewels stood,
beautiful, at the surface of the earth; likewise there were five
up on the shoulder-beam. Many hosts of angels--fair by their pre-ordained condition--
10 gazed thereupon; nor was that indeed a criminal's cross,
but holy spirits, men over the earth,
and all this famous creation gazed upon it.
Wondrous was the tree of victory, and I with sins stained,
wounded sorely with blemishes. I saw the tree of glory
15 beautifully shine, adorned in its covering,
adorned with gold; jewels
covered splendidly the Lord's tree.
But still through that gold I was able to perceive
the earlier enmity, as it had immediately begun
20 to bleed on the right half. I was completely afflicted with sorrows;
I was fearful because of that beautiful vision. I saw that shining sign
change covering and color; sometimes it was made moist with blood,
drenched with blood's flow, sometimes adorned with treasure.
But yet I lying a long time there
25 gazed at the Savior's troubled tree,
until that I heard it call out;
the best wood began then to speak words:

"That was years gone by--I still remember--
that I was hewn down at the forest's edge,
30 cut out of my tree trunk. Strong foes took me there,
shaped me there for themselves in the form of a spectacle, commanded me to raise their criminals.
Warriors carried me there on shoulders, until that they set me on a hill;
many foes fastened me there. I then saw mankind's Lord
hasten with great zeal; he wished to climb on me.
35 There I then darest not bow nor burst
contrary to the Lord's word when I saw earth's surface
trembling. I would have been able
to kill all foes but I stood firm.
The young hero stripped himself--that was God almighty--
40 strong and unflinching; he stepped up on the high cross,
brave in the sight of many, where he wished to redeem mankind.
I trembled when the Warrior embraced me; nor did I dare, however, to bow down to the earth,
to fall to the surfaces of the earth. But I had to stand firm.
As a rood I was erected; I raised the powerful King,
45 the Lord of heavens; I dared not bow myself down.
They drove through me with iron-colored and sinister nails: on me the wounds are visible,
the open malicious wounds; neither dared I to injure any of them.
They mocked us two both together. I was completely stained with blood,
covered from the man's side after he had released his spirit.
50 I had endured on that hill
much of cruel fates. I saw the God of hosts
severely stretched out. Shades of night had
covered with clouds the Lord's corpse,
the bright radiance; shades went forth
55 dark under the sky. All creation mourned,
bewailed the king's fall; Christ was on the cross.

"But there the eager ones came from afar
to the Prince. I beheld it all.
I was with sorrows sorely afflicted; I bent down nevertheless to the hands of the warriors,
60 submissive, with great zeal. They took there the almighty God,
raised him from the heavy torture. The warriors left me
to stand covered over by moisture; I was all with punctures wounded.
They lay the limb-weary one there; they themselves stood at his body's head;
they gazed there at the heaven's Lord, and he himself there a time rested,
65 weary after that great battle. They, the warriors, themselves began to form
an earth-urn in the sight of the rood; they carved that out of bright stone;
they placed therein the Lord of victory. They themselves then began to sing a dirge,
wretched in the evening hour, then they wished again to travel,
weary from the glorious prince; he rested there with a small band.
70 However we there weeping a good while
stood in a fixed position. The voice of the warriors
rose up. The corpse cooled,
the fair dwelling of the soul. Then a man began to fell us
all to earth. That was a dreadful fate!
75 One dug us into a deep pit. However, there the Lord's servants,
friends, found me by seeking;
they adorned me with gold and with silver.

"Now you may hear, my beloved hero,
that I have experienced the work of evil-doers,
80 the work of painful sorrow. The time is now come
that men over earth and all this glorious creation
far and wide honor me
[and] pray themselves to this sign. On me God's son
suffered a time; therefore I now victory-fast
85 tower under the heavens, and I may heal
each one of those who themselves hold me in awe.
Formerly I was made the hardest of torments,
the most hated to people, before I revealed
the right way of life to the speech-bearing ones.
90 Behold, the Lord of the kingdom of heavens, the Guardian of heaven's kingdom,
ennobled me then over the trees of the forest
just as he, almighty God, for the sake of all men
honored his mother also, Mary herself,
over all womankind.

95 "Now I command you, my beloved warrior,
that you tell this sight to men [and]
disclose these words--that it is the cross of glory
on which the almighty God suffered
for the many sins of mankind
100 and Adam's former action
He there tasted death; but again the Lord arose
with his great might as a help to man.
He then stepped into the heavens. Hither again the Lord himself
will direct his course to this middle-earth
105 to seek out mankind on the judgment day,
the almighty God and his angels with [him],
in order that he then will judge, he who has the power of judgment,
each one as he shall have earned for himself
in this brief life.

Whether we feel completely comfortable with every nuance of the writer's theology, I think he speaks well of the one who is both Lamb of God and Lion of Judah, no?

David
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Wed 10 Mar, 2004 3:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To see this thread continue to roll like this is really great ! Faith has become isolating on a societal (sp) level due to
the way its demonised and therefore hushed up which prohibits inteligent discussion/discourse of any sort . The way this just keeps going in a mature and reasonable fashion is very redeeming to read!
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Taylor Ellis




PostPosted: Wed 10 Mar, 2004 4:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Without the resurrection the Christian faith would be meaningless

Wow, got to utterly disagree there. Guess I'm one of those "moral of the story is more important than the details" sort of people. Happy
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Steve Fabert





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PostPosted: Wed 10 Mar, 2004 4:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Silly people         Reply with quote

Leah F. wrote:
I am getting so tired of people missing the whole point of the movie. (doesn't surprise me much though)
They are going on and on about "who really killed Jesus?"
Which is completely beside th point. It doesn't really matter who killed Jesus. The main purpose of God sending His Son to earth, was to die. We NEED a savior. Jesus wanted to die for us. That is what needed to happen. The only way to the Father is through Christ.
Blessings,
Leah F.
age 16 :blush:


It should not surprise you to see a lot of defensiveness from those non-Christians who see the movie as an accusation of murder. What you see from critics of the film is the difference between people who understand the nature of forgiveness, and those whose lives are instead full of constant blaming. The obsession with guilt, and the avoidance of blame, are the natural state of people who believe that whatever they have done wrong is unforgiveable. It's a miserable way to live. It can lead you to deny even the most obvious wrongs, and to accuse innocent people of things they did not do, just to maintain the appearance of personal blamelessness. The misery goes away when you understand that acknowledging your wrongs is not an admission of failure, but the first step toward repentance and forgiveness.
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Joel Whitmore




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PostPosted: Wed 10 Mar, 2004 6:42 pm    Post subject: Great Discussion guys         Reply with quote

I am going to see the movie tomorrow. As far as all the flap is concerned, I think we need to take a step back and look at exactly who is throwing the charges of anti-semitism. I, as a Christian, was particularly offended by these charges and the simple arrogance that I should change MY religion to conform to the feeligns of the Jewish people who were offended. Having gotten that off my chest *sigh* I really believe that this was a campaign against religon in general that really backfired. Mel could not have gotten a tenth of the publicity for his little independednt film that the news media and "protest groups" gave it. The fantastic arguments that the film would cause wide-spread violence against Jews were on very shaky ground to begin with. There is big hoopla that Schindler's List, a wonderful film, is being released on DVD. I wonder if it moved Jews to violence against Germans after viewing it? Did Southerners begin attacking the North again after viewing Gods and Generals? Again the arguments ring false. There are so many beautiful moments in the Gospels it is hard to pick one. For some reason when Christ calls out, "Father, why have you forsaken me?" just brings home to me that Jesus was also a man. He was falable like me. He had weaknesses like me. He had fear like me. Just my opinioin on that one. As far as picking the Bibilical text apart with too fine a comb, that is a tough thing to do. Bad translations, the fact that it was a nearly oral tradition for hundreds of years , the leaving out of entire texts of the Gospels for various reasons and the outright changing of the text makes it nearly impossible to find out exactly what happened. I am a Catholic and when people ask me about all the terrible things that have been done by and in the name of the Catholic Church I always tell them this: The most profound miracle since the resurrection is the mere fact that the church survives to this day in spite of itself. I guess the same case could be made for Christianity as a whole. As for Mel Gibson, I applaud him for standing strong in the face of tremendous pressure, not the least of which was financial. It takes a brave soul to lay it ont he line like Mel did and I am glad that the movie is a success.

Joel
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Kirk Lee Spencer




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PostPosted: Fri 12 Mar, 2004 2:59 pm    Post subject: Gospel Truth         Reply with quote

I have to agree.... it is very refreshing, and worthwhile to find such a mature discussion of religious matters. Faith is an important facet of life. And, if we accept the gospel as truth, or the forgiveness that God offers is will be by faith.

I have been following discussions of Mel Gibson's "Passion" on a couple of forums. Several times forumites have expressed the common skeptical view that the gospel accounts were written hundreds of years after the events that they record and, therefore, can not be trusted as reliable eyewitness accounts. Because of this "The Passion" is more of a work of literature than history.

While it is true that the earliest complete manuscripts of the gospels date hundreds of years after the events, there is one pesky gospel fragment... It is called "The Ryland's Fragment." This small piece of papyrus contains a few verses from the Gospel of John... (Where Pilate asks, "What is Truth?") Archeologists date this fragment to the beginning of the second century. If this is correct, then the Ryland's Fragment suggest that it is quite possible John's Gospel existed within a generation of the life of the apostle John. And since it is generally acknowledged that John's gospel is later than the synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke), all of the gospels may have been completed in the first century. If so, then the gospels were written at a time when eyewitnesses to the events would still be alive. It is still a faith assumption that these first Christians would tell the truth (or more importantly), die for that truth. However there is at least some textual evidence to place the Biblical story, on which Mel Gibson's movie was based, within a time when people would have remembered the events themselves.

ks



 Attachment: 80.22 KB
RylandsFragWeb.jpg
The Ryland's Fragment

Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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David McElrea




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PostPosted: Fri 12 Mar, 2004 6:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Kirk,

Thanks for that!

Another set of manuscripts that are of interest along these lines are those of the Chester Beatty Papyrus collection. Broken into three groups (P45, P46, P47), it looks something like this:

P45 contained all four gospels as well as Acts. All that is left are a few fragments from three of the gospels (Matt, Mark, John) and Acts.

P46 contains Paul's letters (excluding Philemon and the Pastorals) and Hebrews. By the by, it is interesting that most scholars (of every shade) believe that Paul's letters were written before the gospels-- and in noting that I am in no way pushing for a late date for the gospels. The thing that is interesting is that Paul's letters, which would seem to have been written within 30-40 years after the crucifixion and ressurection already have a very developed understanding of Christ's deity and role as Redeemer. In some places Paul would seem to be quoting "established" tradition to place his teachings within the recognised context of his fellow-apostles' teaching.

P47 contains half (or so) of Revelation.

There are also some portions of the Old Testament.

The collection has been dated around 200 or so-- some scholars have started to date it as quite a bit earlier. It goes without saying that it upholds the modern translations (especially as modern translations use it for textual criticism).

It occurs to me that we have moved to a discussion that relates to the Ephesians 6 armoury, no? Happy

Its great hearing from you all!

David
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William Goodwin




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PostPosted: Sat 13 Mar, 2004 2:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Saw it last night..came out speechless...if you don't come out of this movie feeling moved in some way...then somethings not right...just my personal out -look.
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Ralph Evans




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PostPosted: Sat 20 Mar, 2004 4:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William Goodwin wrote:
Saw it last night..came out speechless...if you don't come out of this movie feeling moved in some way...then somethings not right...just my personal out -look.


My feelings exactly. I encourage everyone to see this film.
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Brian M




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PostPosted: Sun 18 Apr, 2004 11:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I finally saw this movie, so I thought I'd weigh in with my take on the situation.

The charges of anti-semitism are total bunk. If anything, the Romans were protrayed as a lot of brutal, sadistic thugs (which they were) but is anyone accusing the Passion of being anti-Italian? My personal belief is this: The political left (including most in the media) has been waging war against Christianity for the last 40 years or so. This movie demonstrated clearly that Christianity is still a vital force in this country, something the left doesn't like to see. What to do? Charge anti-semitism! Are you a Christian? Do you believe in the Gospels as told? You're a hate-monger! You're going to watch this movie and then go burn down the nearest synagogue! Sarcasm aside, the utter vitriol and hysteria with which critics assaulted this movie is instructive as to their real motive -- namely, to attack and weaken Christianity by any means necessary.
I would also like to point out that, at least as far as I have seen, the main bulk of the critics are in fact NOT Jews. They are people like Andy Rooney, a "left-leaning" media icon. Again, this is instructive. If Jews themselves really believed the Passion were anti-semitic they would of course be justified in speaking out as a whole. The total lack of any anti-Jewish reaction (from Christians seeing the film) must be a reassurance to Jews who were honestly concerned, and is a major blow to the hysterical predictions of the critics. No, most of the critics are not Jews, but the politcal left of various stripes -- militant atheists, socialists, "secular humanists," "new-agers" (aka Western Buddhists) etc.
Unfortunately, Christians have generally not done a good job defending the faith in the public arena. Thus a minority of anti-Christians have been working to banish Christianity from public life -- with some success. I think the trend is changing a bit, and Chrisitans are becoming more active, but we've a long way to go. Maybe "The Passion" provided a little spark.

Regards,
Brian M

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Robert W. Betten




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PostPosted: Sun 18 Apr, 2004 6:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Saw it and I wasnt particular moved, and felt like walking out. I myself as alot may or may not know am not a christian, therfore I saw it in a very different light. I wasnt moved, not emotionally divulged in the film, just another piece of hollywood to add to the collection.

*shrugs* guess its doing good things for those who believe in that stuff.

*!*
"If the people we love are taken from us,
the way they live on is to never stop loving
them. Buildings burn, people die, but real
love is forever."
- Sarah 'The Crow'
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