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Geoff Wood




Location: UK
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PostPosted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 9:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

[quote="Thomas Parsons"]
Dustin R. Reagan wrote:
Mike Arledge wrote:
I really, really like this one. Very Italian look and feel, as unique in those respects as the Doge. Keep em coming!!


"Actually, i don't think there is anything italian about it...unless i'm mistaken, Burgundy was a franco-germanic kingdom..."



I think the overall weapon has a distinctive "flemish" appearance, maybe handling in the future will confirm this...

Either way Burgundy was indeed a territory issuing from the kingdom of France. Yet at the time this sword would have been in use the small Duchy of Burgundy had been considerably enlarged by the various marital and martial policies of the Valois dukes (Philippe le Hardi; Jean Sans Peur; Philippe le Bon; Charles le Travaillant) stretching from the Low Countries nearly to the Alps. Admittedly the last valois duke managed to demolish in ten years what took nearly a century to construct... Mad Evil

But "Burgundy" was not a kingdom at this time, it hadn't been since the end of the "Burgonds" during the early or high middle ages. It was in fact the desire to construct an actual kingdom (along with all the wonderful status this brought to the ruler...) and the belief that he was righlty entitled to do so that led Charles le Travaillant (not unjustly called "the Rash" in our fair english Happy ) to mad military actions, unwise political decisions and ultimately the demise of the territorial entity seperating the kingdom of France from the Holy Roman Empire.

All that to say that I think the lines of the weapon make it flemish rather than italian Happy

and just to ram the final nail in the coffin: we would do well never to forget that there is a huge difference between nationality of the owner and that of the manufacturer (or manufacturers as the case may be) as has already been stated by many.




Well, you've managed to nail down the coffin of where and what Burgundy was. I wasn't aware this was an issue under dispute. Aside from you're opinion of the appearance, what additional evidence have you provided as to the location of manufacture of the sword type on which this was based? The name 'Burgundian' was chosen by Albion. I don't think they are claiming that the swords of this type were so named when they were first made (or owned, or used). I'd also be intrigued to know which aspect of handling makes a sword 'Flemish'? Happy
Regards
Geoff
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Thomas Parsons




Location: Strasbourg (France)
Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Reading list: 23 books

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PostPosted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 10:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The handling aspect is quite obscure: sorry Worried , as I was writing I was just wondering how it would compare in handling to a flemish replica owned by a friend of mine and the thoughts kind of ended up on the page...

as to why I think it is flemish is due to something as unscientific as it is unhistorical: a hunch. Although hopefully my study director will one day get round to writing a request to the Musée de Cluny asking them to very kindly let me take a first hand look at their piece. I'm hoping to find traces of smith marks... Has anyone out there already tried/succeeded in this?
I really would be interested! Either way I'm hoping that if any marks are found they will support my afformentioned hunch. Like I said very unscientific Happy ...


As to "what is Burgundy" again sorry... I got sidetracked by the query:


"Please correct me if I'm wrong but:

1) Burgundy was a Franco-Germanic kingdom." - Dustin R. Reagan
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Fabrice Cognot
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Location: Dijon
Joined: 29 Sep 2004

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PostPosted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 5:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thomas Parsons wrote:
as to why I think it is flemish is due to something as unscientific as it is unhistorical: a hunch. Although hopefully my study director will one day get round to writing a request to the Musée de Cluny asking them to very kindly let me take a first hand look at their piece. I'm hoping to find traces of smith marks... Has anyone out there already tried/succeeded in this?
I really would be interested! Either way I'm hoping that if any marks are found they will support my afformentioned hunch. Like I said very unscientific Happy ...


...*le sigh*...as I said earlier, I'll try to have a closer look at it once it's back - because for now, the sword is in Florence, at the "A bon Droyt" exhibition, until March. I asked the curator more info about it anyway.

As for sword maker's marks for the medieval period : data about them are rare, to say the least. Maybe on the tang, but I don't think Cluny will agree that I take the sword apart, not have the money to fund a x-ray study of it.

And as I said earlier, I don't 'feel' such pommels to be specifically Italian. I find them a North-Burgundian ("de par deçà") flavour too.

BTW : You're in Strasbourg ? Why don't you PM me, we could talk a bit further about a thing or two Happy

Fab

PhD in medieval archeology.
HEMAC member
De Taille et d'Estoc director
Maker of high quality historical-inspired pieces.
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Geoff Wood




Location: UK
Joined: 31 Aug 2003

Posts: 634

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PostPosted: Sun 13 Jan, 2008 1:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thomas Parsons wrote:
The handling aspect is quite obscure: sorry Worried , as I was writing I was just wondering how it would compare in handling to a flemish replica owned by a friend of mine and the thoughts kind of ended up on the page...

as to why I think it is flemish is due to something as unscientific as it is unhistorical: a hunch. Although hopefully my study director will one day get round to writing a request to the Musée de Cluny asking them to very kindly let me take a first hand look at their piece. I'm hoping to find traces of smith marks... Has anyone out there already tried/succeeded in this?
I really would be interested! Either way I'm hoping that if any marks are found they will support my afformentioned hunch. Like I said very unscientific Happy ...


As to "what is Burgundy" again sorry... I got sidetracked by the query:


"Please correct me if I'm wrong but:

1) Burgundy was a Franco-Germanic kingdom." - Dustin R. Reagan


Thanks for the response. I understand now. What was your friend's Flemish replica a replica of?
regards
geoff
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Thomas Parsons




Location: Strasbourg (France)
Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Reading list: 23 books

Posts: 13

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PostPosted: Sun 13 Jan, 2008 3:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

"BTW : You're in Strasbourg ? Why don't you PM me, we could talk a bit further about a thing or two" F. COGNOT

- PM sent Happy
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