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Jean Henri Chandler
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 Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| Matt Easton wrote: | I have to agree actually - I have not handled any of the originals that any of the Albion models are based on, but I have handled quite a lot of originals of various types (including a couple featured in 'Records') from the whole period, and I think Albions are spot-on. I'd also like to mention that some originals feel horrible at first, until you consider their function. For example, a lot of 12thC swords feel clunky, but when you consider that they were primarily cavalry weapons, and almost always used with a shield, then they make sense.
Matt |
Some of the Albion replicas are clearly very, very good. The Brescia Spadona seems to be an example of very good accuracy, and not surprisingly to me, it turns out to be one of the best performing replica weapons in every test i have heard of. But there does seem to me to be some variation in quality from one sword type in their line to the next. There are also more subtle things about what makes a sword than handling and feel. The truth is that because we don't kill people with swords any more (one hopes) we may never really know them all.
It also seems to me, from my own limited experience and knowledge, that the best originals / antiques are mostly in private collections and / or auction houses, not in the museums.
J
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Matt Easton
Location: Surrey, UK. Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 241
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | It also seems to me, from my own limited experience and knowledge, that the best originals / antiques are mostly in private collections and / or auction houses, not in the museums.
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I don't think you can make a blanket statement like that - some very high status fighting swords are in private collections, like that which probably belonged to the 'Black Prince'. But some, like those of Henry V and Maximillian I, are in public museums. In fact I would tend towards the opposite of your statment - most in museums are in museums because they are in good condition and often have a high status provenance. Many in private hands have been found archaeologically or are otherwise in poor shape. There are famous exceptions in each case - one of course being the Chastillon hoard of around 80 swords, which are mostly superb fighting weapons in remarkable condition (some of these are now in museums, but the majority are in private hands).
Another topic which is important to durability is edge hardness: Alan Williams has tested lots and lots of medieval and renaissance weapons, and there are plenty of medieval swords in the 40-50 Rockwell hardness range. We would rarely accept a hardness of 40-45 Rockwell today.
Matt
Schola Gladiatoria - www.swordfightinglondon.com
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 8:23 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I have to agree actually - I have not handled any of the originals that any of the Albion models are based on, but I have handled quite a lot of originals of various types (including a couple featured in 'Records') from the whole period, and I think Albions are spot-on. I'd also like to mention that some originals feel horrible at first, until you consider their function. For example, a lot of 12thC swords feel clunky, but when you consider that they were primarily cavalry weapons, and almost always used with a shield, then they make sense. |
Agreed, most of our original blades are of Sinclare saber form, a sort of early precursor to the hanger/briquet. These tend to feel awkeward at first as the impulse is to use them in long sword fashion, but these were predominanty meat cleavers, produced in large quantities for troops whos training was increasingly focused on not sword play but drill for pike and shot. In other words these swords were for troops generally inexpirienced in the use of the sword so that they could use them to good effect when doing what comes naturally when attackign with something in the hand, swinging or swatting ( thrusting is not per say a natural impulse, very young children are disciplined for hitting not poking by and large). Lee has a very long sword c. late 11th century, similar to the Solingen in length ( which puts it on average some 4-5 inches longer than most swords at the time) but when taking why the Solingen is that long into account makes sense, shorter swords when used from horseback required the rider to bend often deeply in the saddle making him vulnerable, adding the length allowed the rider to stay upright and also increased force in the downward stroke.
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | | Allan Senefelder wrote: | | Sorry quick addition, while you buddy got a steal, as we have been lucky enough to do ( even Oakeshott tell the story of the blade in an umbrella stand painted silver in a curio shoppe he got for nothing and was an 100% original blade) theres always a lucky score to be found, but checking auction houses catalogs and sites, one can quickly see that the "going" price and the "I got a steal" price are quit a bit different. |
Fair enough, but in the amount of time it would take me to save up say, $2000 or $3000 for a top of the line Albion sword, I could probably find a pretty good deal on an antique in the same range. Though to be honest I think the price of European swords is increasing due to the mounting recognition of their value. And I do agree with the notion that my Albion will probably be worth considerably more than I bought it for in 20 years. Especially if I don't break it cutting two by fours!
J |
It depends on what time period you are going for and the condition of the piece. It would be extremely unlikely that one would be able to find an original medieval sword in th e$2000-$3000 range. If one could find one it would probably be in an extreme "relic" condition. A medieval or early Renaissance sword in good condition and priced in the aforementioned price range should be approached with caution.
Jonathan
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: |
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Like has been mentioned, you can certainly find some antiques in the $2000 price range (though be skeptical if they're in good condition). But who is going to actually use them for drills, cutting practice? That's one benefit of modern production swords: they're useable and much more easily replaced than an antique.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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M. Eversberg II
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 11:51 am Post subject: |
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TO GET BACK ON TRACK: Yes.
But can you afford them? If so, go for it! If not, maybe some day.
M.
This space for rent or lease.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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Jean Henri Chandler-
You may have already mentioned this and I didn't catch it so I thought I would ask: how much first-hand knowledge of Albion's products do you have? How many swords in their current line-up have you personally handled and examined?
The reason I ask is that some of your statements really don't seem to apply to their current line-up, and especially don't apply to the line-up as a whole -- which is what is the topic of this conversation.
The interesting thing about Albion's line up is that their prices extend a great range. Within that range can be found varying degrees of value. Value is a subjective term that will mean something different to each of us depending on our needs and how we prioritize various qualities. With such a large catalog and wide range of pricing, it would seem that most consumers of modern-made swords can find something that is of interest for them. For me, some of the items in their catalog represent a good value, others do not. But I include the caveat in that statement that says "for me" because it's based on my own needs and interests. Mileage will vary.
Regarding pricing of antiques: I have followed antique pricing trends and my experience with them does not reflect your own. I saw that sword that your friend bought (or one identical) for $2000 listed on the 'net. It's asking price was around $2,500 when I saw it and it was listed as "in the style of", meaning it was a reproduction (albeit, still an antique in its own right). Regardless, the prices of even these items are now pushing quite a bit more than the $2000 mark at this time.
Albion does not offer that type of sword in their line-up. They will be presenting complex-hilted hand and a half swords at around the $1200 mark soon, however. This is considerably less than the price of the antique in question and, more importantly, fits a very different purpose than an antique would. Replicas and antiques fill two completely different needs. They are not interchangeable in collecting or pricing comparisons. As an example, many collectors will pay $800 for a quality smallsword even though an antique can be found for the very same price. Both fill a different niche and offer different values to different people.
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | Jean Henri Chandler-
You may have already mentioned this and I didn't catch it so I thought I would ask: how much first-hand knowledge of Albion's products do you have? How many swords in their current line-up have you personally handled and examined? |
The most Albions I ever saw in one place was at a cutting day at the home of a guy who used to post here I believe, Aaron Schnatterly (I'm sure i misspelled that) who I believe works for Albion now. That was about 2005 IIRC. There were about 40 swords there, maybe 30 of them were Albions, plus a few A&A, and I think a couple of custom blades. I cut with about 12 swords that day, and handled pretty much all of them. i think we may have even posted some photos from that event here, i still have some on my hard drive somewhere if you want proof. That experience is what influenced me to buy my Constable.
Since then I have handled numerous others, including a few months ago I briefly handled one by another person who posts to this forum who can chime in if he likes. And of course as I've mentioned I also own one.
The last time I handled some antique swords was also in 2005, in Switzerland and the Czech republic.
| Quote: | | I saw that sword that your friend bought (or one identical) for $2000 listed on the 'net. It's asking price was around $2,500 when I saw it and it was listed as "in the style of", meaning it was a reproduction (albeit, still an antique in its own right). Regardless, the prices of even these items are now pushing quite a bit more than the $2000 mark at this time. |
There was a similar sword posted here on myArmoury but if you go back and look at the photos it was not the same one, if that is the one you are referring to. I'll let the guy who bought it chime in more abut the sword if he wants to, he reads this forum sometimes. But I'll say this much, if it's a replica, i would really like to know where I can buy one because it is exquisite.
And I have seen what appeared to me to be authentic 16th century swords on a variety of websites in the $2000-$3000 price range over the years, in decent condition. Surely not common, but not unheard of by any means. I'll be sure and look out for some to add to this thread in the future it's been a while since I've looked.
| Quote: | | Both fill a different niche and offer different values to different people. |
I'm not saying that sword seemed better to me because of a complex hilt. I don't want to get bogged down in a debate about that particular sword especially since it is someone elses. I would like to reiterate, I am not attacking Albion. I'm sorry I just don't agree that they are making swords which are better than the higher end weapons made in period. Not even close.
I know you disagree. I know quite a few people disagree. I know you have undoubtedly seen many, many more replicas than I have and probably more antiques as well. I know Albion is making better swords, it is clear just from the photos I've seen lately.
I also know my opinion was not formed out of thin air or casually. And that I am extremely unlikely to convince you or most of the other people who post here of my points of view on this specific matter. I'm OK with that.
J
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Last edited by Jean Henri Chandler on Sat 12 Jan, 2008 4:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Matt Easton wrote: | | Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | It also seems to me, from my own limited experience and knowledge, that the best originals / antiques are mostly in private collections and / or auction houses, not in the museums.
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I don't think you can make a blanket statement like that - some very high status fighting swords are in private collections, like that which probably belonged to the 'Black Prince'. But some, like those of Henry V and Maximillian I, are in public museums. In fact I would tend towards the opposite of your statment - |
It would be really nice to see a systematic survey of known weapons. I am mostly going by what I have myself seen in both an auction house and in a variety of museums including quite a few of the major collections in Europe (only a small sample still) and the photos and articles I have seen about visits to European auction houses posted to numerous HEMA forums and email lists.
| Quote: | Another topic which is important to durability is edge hardness: Alan Williams has tested lots and lots of medieval and renaissance weapons, and there are plenty of medieval swords in the 40-50 Rockwell hardness range. We would rarely accept a hardness of 40-45 Rockwell today.
Matt |
I think it's a mistake to assume the be-all end-all of durability is Rockwell hardness, as some Sword Makers have done in the past infamously. And from what I have been told by some swordsmiths, the heat treat is much more important than the hardness of the steel used. But i also remember last time I was reading about this in 2004 that the three or four studies that had been done were done on very small samples of blades. Have more studies been done since then?
J
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B. Stark
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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On the subject of quality comparisons between originals and Albions reproductions: During my time at Albion at the point of one of PJ's visits we discussed the merits of originals. One particular sword was discussed during that period and that was the Brescia Spadona. Naturally I asked the comparison between what Albion is making and the original. Part of that topic covered the fact that the Brescia has *shock and awe* forging flaws. The fullers are not straight nor are the exactly opposite each other on the respective sides. This is just one aspect that I recall. In comparison Albions is geometrically quantum leaps ahead in geometric perfection. The fullers are exact and straight. The hardness is higher and over all the sword is sturdier and handles just like the original. So how is that quantum leaps behind?
Quite frankly I trust PJ's summations about this comparison, plain and simple.
"Wyrd bi∂ ful aręd"
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| B. Stark wrote: | | Part of that topic covered the fact that the Brescia has *shock and awe* forging flaws. |
This is interesting...do you mean forging flaws like voids in the steel or the fuller straightness/symetry?
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| B. Stark wrote: | On the subject of quality comparisons between originals and Albions reproductions: During my time at Albion at the point of one of PJ's visits we discussed the merits of originals. One particular sword was discussed during that period and that was the Brescia Spadona. Naturally I asked the comparison between what Albion is making and the original. Part of that topic covered the fact that the Brescia has *shock and awe* forging flaws. The fullers are not straight nor are the exactly opposite each other on the respective sides. This is just one aspect that I recall. In comparison Albions is geometrically quantum leaps ahead in geometric perfection. The fullers are exact and straight. The hardness is higher and over all the sword is sturdier and handles just like the original. So how is that quantum leaps behind?
Quite frankly I trust PJ's summations about this comparison, plain and simple. |
I have absolutely no doubt that the fuller is straighter on the Albion version. Which I think is exquisite. I have a huge amount of respect for PJ. I also have absolutely no doubt that the original is a better sword than the replica. Go figure.
J
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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Ok I just did a very quick check on Ebay. This sword is selling for about $2000 right now, don't know where the auction will end. Is it fake? I really can't tell. If so lets expose this guy and bust him. It seems kind of suspicious that it is restored and unlikely to really be quite that old but I can't see anything obvious wrong with it
http://cgi.ebay.com/Highlight-Crusader-Sword-...otohosting
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Last edited by Jean Henri Chandler on Sat 12 Jan, 2008 4:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Jean-
Thank you for filling in the info about your hands-on knowledge. This helps a lot.
Aaron has a fantastic collection and one that serves as a good example of their product line. I've seen and handled most of the items he owned prior to two years ago and would say that those items represent a much lower price point than comparable antiques would cost, serve as good examples of well-made swords representing swords of old, and (in my subjective opinion) represent a good value for the asking price.
| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | | There was a similar sword posted here on myArmoury but if you go back and look at the photos it was not the same one, if that is the one you are referring to. I'll let the guy who bought it chime in more abut the sword if he wants to, he reads this forum sometimes. But I'll say this much, if it's a replica, i would really like to know where I can buy one because it is exquisite. |
I've seen three swords listed in auctions that were similar. I nearly bought one at $1400 when listed on eBay, but the auction was prematurely pulled and relisted for higher with the text changed to be more vague. Regardless, the asking price of $2400 was not unfair for what it is. I agree that it's an exquisite replica (and quite old itself) and would gladly own it as well.
Regardless of that specific sword, the sales price, or the discussion of its authenticity (all things not on-topic), the fact remains that an antique sword of that type is almost always going to be considerably higher-priced than a comparable replica. This is expected and I'd be surprised to see anyone arguing the contrary.
| Quote: | | I'm not saying that sword seemed better to me because of a complex hilt. I don't want to get bogged down in a debate about somebody else's sword. |
I know you didn't say that. It wasn't my point that you said that. I was attempting to compare price points of swords that were similar, ie, two hand and a half swords that have complex hilts. It would be folly to compare a complex-hilted hand and a half sword with a single-handed viking sword, for example, and attempt to determine relative value for the two in terms of pricing.
You made a point that you believe that the price of Albion swords is approaching the price of comparable styles of antique swords. I do not agree with you. Going down the list of their products one can look at each style of weapon one by one: the "early" weapons (the Roman stuff) would be significantly less expensive than any real Roman weapons even if such an antique could be found on the market. This isn't even considering the condition of such an antique. The same is true for the Viking stuff. Find an antique Viking sword even in relatively good condition and you'll see prices are many times more than the replica. Skipping ahead, the same is true for the other items until you get more into the later medieval items where such antiques are more readily available. Even with these, the prices for items in good condition are considerably more than a replica of the same form. This is true for their entire line-up, as well it should be.
But all of that is an aside because the fact is: antiques and replicas serve distinctly different purposes. To try to compare them, even in prices, is not worthwhile because these items, for most people, cannot fill the same need. One, for example, will not (and in most cases can not) use an antique sword for test cutting, martial arts practice, etc. This purpose, as only one example, encompasses the needs of much of this site's community. Going to another niche of this community, the collector, one may have an interest of collecting a wide-sweeping array of weapons that cover a wide scope of the sword's evolution. Such a collection can be assembled with replica swords from various makers at a relatively accessible cost, whereas doing a similar collection of antiques may cost several, several times the cost. Taking the items that I own, as only one example, the cost to replace it with antiques of similar form/period would cost me between 5 and 10 times (or more) the cost depending on how many concessions I was willing to make. I've not been able to justify this leap, myself, in cost, so for me the value of my own replicas has shown itself.
| Quote: | I'm sorry I just don't agree that they are making swords which are better than the higher end weapons made in period. Not even close.
I know you disagree. I know quite a few people disagree. |
It was not me that said Albion makes swords that are better than antiques. I've not made that comparison. Your confusing somebody else's statements with mine.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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Fair enough.
And you are right without a doubt it is not possible to get an antique sword of pre 16th century in usable condition for the price range. Let alone Viking or Roman!
However I notice Albion has one in their museum line for $3000 now which to me does overlap with some reputable auctions I just found (not on Ebay).
Anyway, you make good points Nathan. i wouldn't want to play with an antique the same way
I apologize for misunderstanding you about whether antiques were better or not.
I did find some other interesting antiques for sale, I don't know where to post them. Somebody might be interested in some of these houses.
I just found a stunningly beautiful 17th century Falchion for sale at what appears to be a reputable auction house for $2700, which is less than the Albion svante. As nice as the Museum line Albions are I'd rather have the antique personally.
Jean
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Last edited by Jean Henri Chandler on Sat 12 Jan, 2008 5:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | | I just found a stunningly beautiful 17th century Falchion for sale at what appears to be a reputable auction house for $2700, which is less than the Albion Svante. As nice as the Museum line Albions are I'd rather have the antique personally. |
That "Falchion" is neat. I like it a lot. But to compare a 17th century sword to the Svante is complete folly. They're totally different swords. Compare the Albion Svante to the actual sword for which it is modeled. I imagine that sword would cost no less than $20k if not double or triple that.. if not more. For those of us who cannot afford to wrangle such an antique from a museum but would still like to own a representation of it that is modeled with such an attention to detail, the replica is as close as we're going to get.
A slightly better comparison might be to compare Albion's falchion (Vassal) to this antique. The Vassal costs $1110, the replica $2700. Even this comparison is folly, in my mind, but is a bit more in line. Most people would find it faulty to compare the most expensive Albion product with any ol' replica and make a point about it. This won't make sense to most people, including myself. To add to this, getting an actual antique of a falchion like the Vassal in good condition would cost many, many times more than the replica. They're not exactly plentiful and are from a distinctly different period of time than the antique you posted. The differences in these types of weapons are extensive and this is even more true compared to the type of sword that Svante represents.
Feel free to post examples of antiques in a new topic on the historical arms talk forum. It's a conversation of its own that is unrelated to Albion swords living up to their marketing.
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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I grant you it's a bit apples to oranges, but so is comparing swords from eras which no longer have antiques available to the public (i.e. Rome) Some serious collectors are looking for a very specific replica of a very specific weapon, like Roman re-enactors or Viking re-enactors for example. Others want a "real" historical sword. Thats what I was paying for when I bought mine. A 14th century sword isn't necessarily any better to me in this regard than a 17th, so long as it's the general type of sword I'm interested in. For me personally some of the 17th century longswords still look like the kind of weapons I am training to use.
I concede that Albion has some very nice swords in the $800 range, like that Tallhoffer which I would love to have.
As for matching era for era, obviously that would take a bit longer. I just showed what i was able to find in about 10 minutes of searching the interweb.
All I was saying remember, was that Albion is starting to approach the ballpark of real antiques, which bears thinking about. My original point was, assuming you are one of the latter group per above, in the amount of time it might take for a lot of people (me) to save the money to buy a $2000 or $3000 replica, you could probably find an antique pretty close to what you were looking for, i.e. a rapier, or a longsword, or an arming sword, or a 'falchion' or whatever.
But i doubt this argument is going to go on for two years or more 
J
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Eric Meulemans
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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I will attempt brevity...
Firstly, the average cost of an Albion NextGen in the present lineup is $917. While it has been mentioned several times that there are less expensive offerings from Albion, I believe it a bit unfair to continually sling around a $2000-3000 figure. None of the NextGen line exceed the 2k mark. In fact, none of them exceed the $1500 mark, and most of the sixty-eight available NextGens don't even come close. Of the five swords in the Museum line, two do exceed (but not by much) the $1500 mark, and only one hits 3k, that being the Svante.
Secondly, while many of us would love to have "the real deal" - including myself - for many of us arguing as to their affordability or availability is pointless. I'm not about to take a period piece and drill (not fervently, at least) or cut with it, so in the end I'm still left with a need for a high-quality reproduction. This alone negates (for me) the entire direction much of this thread has taken.
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Greyson Brown
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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I may regret posting this. To me, the question, "does Albion live up to the hype?" is about whether they live up to the marketing. That, of course, begs the question of what "hype" is there to live up to. On the top of their main page, Albion says this about their swords:
| Quote: | | They are not look-alikes or replicas -- we call them "re-creations" because they not only look like period originals, but feel and perform like them as well, just as on the day that they were newly forged. No short-cuts, no compromises. Just the real thing. |
Also, on their Next Generation Line Philosophy and Features Page, Albion says that their swords are/will be authentic, hand-crafted, and fully-functional (there's more there, but those are the main points).
I have not really seen anything in this thread that attempts to dissagree with those points. We all seem to be in agreement that they live up to the "hype."
As for the price issue, I don't see a promise from Albion that everyone will be able to afford these swords (I wish it was there, but it's just not practical). It is still a relevent concern -- as we will each have to decide for ourselves if Albions are worth the price (as Nathan and others have pointed out repeatedly) -- but it is not entirely germane to the subject of Albion living up to the "hype," as there is no mention of price, cost, or even value in the "hype."
Albion may not live up to all of our desires, dreams, wishes, fantasies, hopes, etc. But they clearly live up to what they claim to be, as has been attested several dozen times in this thread.
-Grey
"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
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