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Peter Cowan
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 Posted: Fri 11 Jan, 2008 4:03 pm Post subject: Does Albion live up tpthe hype |
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I am the very proud owner of twelve Albion swords. Some I have bought on this site and the rest from Albion. Although I am a novice with regards to swords I have been a collector of Handmade Knives for years. You get what you pay for. Lets face it, this is an expensive hobby. As far as quality is concerned, Albion is #1 in my books. Also like Angus Trim said, Albion is top notch in customer relations. I honestly think you can't go wrong with an Albion.
I have also a couple of A&A swords. They are excellent as well, both in service and sword quality. Again you can't go wrong.
Keep an eye on this site for bargains .
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Andrew Babbini
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| Posted: Fri 11 Jan, 2008 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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To answer that question in a word, 'yes' would be it. I was taught that you pick two of the three following items and the one you didn't pick is what it's not going to be: Good, Cheap, Fast. Albion does things 'Fast' (by my standards at any rate) and 'Good.'  I myself own one and have owned another in the recent past. They handle like they're supposed to with respects to the originals and for the blade type, or at least within a fraction of a hair off of a cockroach's posterior. I've only handled two originals. One being a Type XVI and the other was a backsword. But I got what Mr Oakeshott referred to as "balanced like a good fishing pole" feel. Albion has that in their line up. So does A&A and works by Mr Trim. I've not handled Mr Tinker's or Mr Lundemo's work so I can't speak from experience there, but I hear great stuff about them and many others. The list could go on and on. But if you want things that are much like the originals on the production market, Albion or A&A are the way to go.
For the forging versus stock removal, I've checked it out for myself by reading a lot of books, talking to smiths and experimenting with making knives. I'm by no means an expert but here's my findings: Forging does not make a superior blade to stock removal and vice versa. It's all in the heat treat. You can have the very best super steel and the best hammer control etceteras but if your heat treat is bad, the blade will not have the desired properties. Heat treating is where all the magic between pearlite and martinsite happens. When you get all that right, to quote a member from another forum (can't remember the name off hand but would give credit if I did), it produces a blade suitable for "smackety goodness."  Forging is honestly just another way to rough shape it nowadays. The real argument is which is faster. But that's a whole other thread. The finishing and fine tuning is always going to be with grinding, filing and sanding. That's a lot of hand work in itself. Try it out. It will probably change your mind. I know it changed mine.
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Sean Smith
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| Posted: Fri 11 Jan, 2008 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: |
But comparing it to a real antique a friend owns from 1570 I'd say it's still a quantum leap behind, just as it's about two quantum leaps ahead of my MRLs (and three past my cold steel).
J |
Yet how much would that 1570 sword cost when new, relative to the Albion? We sometimes tend to forget, these weapons helped people live or die, and their life's earnings were spent towards this end, as opposed to car payments, house payments, and simply being a "Weekend Warrior". I am sure someone out there could build you a complete reproduction which could handle and in almost all properties act the same as a historic sword. But would it be worth the price? Albion (IMHO) helps bring the closest many of us will get to "perfect" swords within budgets that we can afford. I hope someday to be able to own one...
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B. Stark
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 11 Jan, 2008 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Sean Smith wrote: | | Jean Henri Chandler wrote: |
But comparing it to a real antique a friend owns from 1570 I'd say it's still a quantum leap behind, just as it's about two quantum leaps ahead of my MRLs (and three past my cold steel).
J |
Yet how much would that 1570 sword cost when new, relative to the Albion? We sometimes tend to forget, these weapons helped people live or die, and their life's earnings were spent towards this end, as opposed to car payments, house payments, and simply being a "Weekend Warrior". I am sure someone out there could build you a complete reproduction which could handle and in almost all properties act the same as a historic sword. But would it be worth the price? Albion (IMHO) helps bring the closest many of us will get to "perfect" swords within budgets that we can afford. I hope someday to be able to own one... |
Actually, I believe that Peter Johnsson has created swords that feel exactly as originals(if not better). Also, the notion that one smith was resonsible for the complete object is another misnomer. Even a blade that was a "custom commission" would go from one shop to another: The blade maker would confer with the cutler and both would confer with the customer(or his representative) and in some cases the scabbard maker (all different jobs and all specialties in their own right). There is evidence that the Gauls had developed an almost "assembly line" process for the making of many products for trade in the second century BC.
"Wyrd bi∂ ful aręd"
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Yet how much would that 1570 sword cost when new, relative to the Albion? We sometimes tend to forget, these weapons helped people live or die, and their life's earnings were spent towards this end, as opposed to car payments, house payments, and simply being a "Weekend Warrior". I am sure someone out there could build you a complete reproduction which could handle and in almost all properties act the same as a historic sword. But would it be worth the price? Albion (IMHO) helps bring the closest many of us will get to "perfect" swords within budgets that we can afford. I hope someday to be able to own one...
Actually, I believe that Peter Johnsson has created swords that feel exactly as originals(if not better). |
I have to say, having the great luxury of having Dr. Lee Jones just down the road and his generosity in sharing some of his extensive collection of original medieval blades with me, and having had Albions close to hand both times they've got it pretty spot on. Three of the peices Lee let me examine and handle are in "Records" and cover a good portion of the range that Albion spans time wise, and I found the corseponding Albions to be very, very close if not spot on. I would be curious to know what Albion the original 1570 piece corresponnds to, I can't think of anything they currently have out that is that late to accurately compare to. I have a number of late 16th/17th century original swords of a very different type than anything Albion offers, so while I have original swords I could in no way use them to compare with Albion products other then perhaps fit and finish, certainly not feel and performance.
At the first ARMA International Event in 2003 I also had the luxury of side by siding an original late 16th/17th century backsword ( obtained from Pete Finer) and a nearly identicle Arms and Armor blade and A&A didn't miss a trick.
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 6:29 am Post subject: |
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| Sean Smith wrote: | | Jean Henri Chandler wrote: |
But comparing it to a real antique a friend owns from 1570 I'd say it's still a quantum leap behind, just as it's about two quantum leaps ahead of my MRLs (and three past my cold steel).
J |
Yet how much would that 1570 sword cost when new, relative to the Albion? We sometimes tend to forget, these weapons helped people live or die, and their life's earnings were spent towards this end, as opposed to car payments, house payments, and simply being a "Weekend Warrior". I am sure someone out there could build you a complete reproduction which could handle and in almost all properties act the same as a historic sword. But would it be worth the price? Albion (IMHO) helps bring the closest many of us will get to "perfect" swords within budgets that we can afford. I hope someday to be able to own one... |
A friend of mine purchased this sword
 
for about $2000 US from an English auction house a couple years ago. Considering the condition and quality of the weapon it was a great bargain, but I have seen similar weapons in the same price range. it does put the price of Albions into perspective.... they are creeping into the ballpark of what you can find acual antiques for now.
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Shawn Henthorn
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 6:44 am Post subject: |
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Hmm, I cant put my finger on it but that blade look "off" to me some how... 
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 6:45 am Post subject: |
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Beautiful sword, and in really good condition... Good for him...
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 6:49 am Post subject: |
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Jean, I must have misunderstood you, I got the impression from your previous post that you were indicating that some quality of manufacture/recreation was missing rather than a price comparison. Appologies.
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 6:52 am Post subject: |
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Sorry quick addition, while you buddy got a steal, as we have been lucky enough to do ( even Oakeshott tell the story of the blade in an umbrella stand painted silver in a curio shoppe he got for nothing and was an 100% original blade) theres always a lucky score to be found, but checking auction houses catalogs and sites, one can quickly see that the "going" price and the "I got a steal" price are quit a bit different.
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| B. Stark wrote: | | I had no intention of wading into this discussion, but since I used to work at Albion and like Clayton had numerous chewed up gloves as part of my experience I have this to add to the stock removal/forged blade non-controversy. First, and probably most importantly ALL SWORDS ARE GROUND. At some point a blade, in order to create the appropriate geometry of edge, fuller, and tip requires grinding in some form or another. It is a misnomer that a sword can be forged start to finish. It cannot. There is no way to finsh, or polish a blade with a hammer of any kind. Now I'm not saying one couldn't try but I would be concerned with the end result being UGLY. |
I think its' great that you worked at Albion, and as I've said very clearly, I really like Albion swords, i think they are fantastic.
But it is inaccurate at best to say that stock removal as the basic production method (i.e. cutting out a shape from a steel bar with a CNC mill) is the same as the 'polishing' or finishing done on a hand-forged sword. There may or may not be evidence about Celtic assembly lines in 2nd Century BC, but most Swords in Europe made before the 12th century AD were not made with stock reduction, and quite a few well into the late Renaissance. And it is not necessary to make fullers either. I have a $90 Paul Chen practical viking sword which has hammer marks up and down the fuller, which is one of the only reasons i never gave it away because I like the way it looks. It's certainly not a 'better' sword than my Albion Constable! It's really just a "Sword like object" to be honest, for all I know it was cut out with a machine and then hammered just to make it look better.
\
But it is a fact that most early Medieval swords were made without stock removal (beyond polishing and sharpening) and quite a few still are today. It is also true that stock removal does have some effect on the structure of a sword. it doesn't necessarily make it a bad sword. There are a lot of things which affect the properties of a sword, what kind of hilt / pommel construction it has (such as the threaded pommels Angus Trim uses vs the type of peening at Albion) what kind of sharpening it has etc. etc.
Albion makes great swords, It is up to the consumer to decide if that is what they want to pay for. Discussing the relative merits of different construction techniques is not an attack on Albion. Discussing the price is not an attack on Albion. Discussing ones own experiences with sword replicas is not attacking Albion. Disagreeing with the notion that Albion swords are supposedly better than period originals, is not attacking Albion. It's a reality check.
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| Allan Senefelder wrote: | | Jean, I must have misunderstood you, I got the impression from your previous post that you were indicating that some quality of manufacture/recreation was missing rather than a price comparison. Appologies. |
Well, let me put it this way. That sword is 47" long and weighs just over two ponds. Complete with the complex hilt and everything. I have handled antiques in Switzerland and Czech republic which I thought had a 'feel' which was a quantum leap ahead of any modern replica I have touched. That is completely subjective though of course.
I wanted to do a write up about the sword I showed above for this website with some better photos but my friend lives out of town and is away for work quite a bit so we have not yet been able to coordinate it.
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: |
I think its' great that you worked at Albion, and as I've said very clearly, I really like Albion swords, i think they are fantastic.
But it is inaccurate at best to say that stock removal as the basic production method (i.e. cutting out a shape from a steel bar with a CNC mill) is the same as the 'polishing' or finishing done on a hand-forged sword. There may or may not be evidence about Celtic assembly lines in 2nd Century BC, but most Swords in Europe made before the 12th century AD were not made with stock reduction, and quite a few well into the late Renaissance. And it is not necessary to make fullers either. I have a $90 Paul Chen practical viking sword which has hammer marks up and down the fuller, which is one of the only reasons i never gave it away because I like the way it looks. It's certainly not a 'better' sword than my Albion Constable! It's really just a "Sword like object" to be honest, for all I know it was cut out with a machine and then hammered just to make it look better.
\
But it is a fact that most early Medieval swords were made without stock removal (beyond polishing and sharpening) and quite a few still are today. It is also true that stock removal does have some effect on the structure of a sword. it doesn't necessarily make it a bad sword. There are a lot of things which affect the properties of a sword, what kind of hilt / pommel construction it has (such as the threaded pommels Angus Trim uses vs the type of peening at Albion) what kind of sharpening it has etc. etc.
Albion makes great swords, It is up to the consumer to decide if that is what they want to pay for. Discussing the relative merits of different construction techniques is not an attack on Albion. Discussing the price is not an attack on Albion. Discussing ones own experiences with sword replicas is not attacking Albion. Disagreeing with the notion that Albion swords are supposedly better than period originals, is not attacking Albion. It's a reality check.
J |
But Albion swords, and those from several other manufacturers, are better than many originals. The steel is better, the heat treat is better. I've not handled too many originals, but from the ones I did, the quality and finish are also better. The real question is...is the shape up to par? Well with Albions museum line, the shape is the same...so you have a sword shaped like a siginifcant period original with better steel and more consistent heat treat. No too bad for a couple of thousand bucks or less. The next gen line is designed by the same man that recreated the originals, based on his study of countless antiques. This is a man that has proven time and time again that his eye for detail is superior to just about anyone else in the business.
As for forging vs stock removal, I think there is a large element of mystique. If you don't own a real forged sword (not a Windlass or Hanwei), as in a sword made by a really good smith, they seem very special somehow. Once you own one, as I do, and realize that there is NO way in hell to tell the difference(good forged swords don't have hammer marks), and your desire to own a "real, genuine, hammer pounded wonder" is satisfied, the attitude tends to change from "ooooh" to "whatever".
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
Last edited by Michael Edelson on Sat 12 Jan, 2008 7:08 am; edited 2 times in total
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| Allan Senefelder wrote: | | Sorry quick addition, while you buddy got a steal, as we have been lucky enough to do ( even Oakeshott tell the story of the blade in an umbrella stand painted silver in a curio shoppe he got for nothing and was an 100% original blade) theres always a lucky score to be found, but checking auction houses catalogs and sites, one can quickly see that the "going" price and the "I got a steal" price are quit a bit different. |
Fair enough, but in the amount of time it would take me to save up say, $2000 or $3000 for a top of the line Albion sword, I could probably find a pretty good deal on an antique in the same range. Though to be honest I think the price of European swords is increasing due to the mounting recognition of their value. And I do agree with the notion that my Albion will probably be worth considerably more than I bought it for in 20 years. Especially if I don't break it cutting two by fours!
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | | Allan Senefelder wrote: | | Sorry quick addition, while you buddy got a steal, as we have been lucky enough to do ( even Oakeshott tell the story of the blade in an umbrella stand painted silver in a curio shoppe he got for nothing and was an 100% original blade) theres always a lucky score to be found, but checking auction houses catalogs and sites, one can quickly see that the "going" price and the "I got a steal" price are quit a bit different. |
Fair enough, but in the amount of time it would take me to save up say, $2000 or $3000 for a top of the line Albion sword, I could probably find a pretty good deal on an antique in the same range. Though to be honest I think the price of European swords is increasing due to the mounting recognition of their value. And I do agree with the notion that my Albion will probably be worth considerably more than I bought it for in 20 years. Especially if I don't break it cutting two by fours!
J |
An Albion Talhoffer, which in my opinion is one of their best swords, costs 722 dollars can be frequently found in the classifieds for about 500 dollars. It is in no way inferior to their more expensive next gen swords, it's just easier to make so they charge less. For 700 bucks I think you might be able to buy a rusty pommel that fell off an original, but that's about it.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 7:14 am Post subject: |
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Unless European smiths are getting a much better deal on steel, brass, bronzem ect. than American smiths ( I can speak to the dramatic price increase in these materials, it finally forced us to raise our prices) the price of European work is going up because thier raw materials costs have gone through the roof like every one else I suspect.
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | | But Albion swords, and those from several other manufacturers, are better than many originals. The steel is better, the heat treat is better. I've not handled too many originals, but from the ones I did, the quality and finish are also better. |
Well said Michael. I have had a different experience. i have seen sword replicas improve vastly in accuracy and overall quality in the last fifteen years that I bought my first cheap sword. All along the way people were telling me that this sword was a perfect replica and that sword was better than the originals. Meanwhile the average weight kept falling from 6 or 7 pounds in some cases , to 4 or 5, to around 3. New subtleties in sword design like distal taper were grasped by sword makers and incorporated into their designs. New construction techniques were experimented with.
I don't believe that we have "reached the promised land" today, or last year, or five years ago. It becomes too easy to dismiss the quality of the real thing. Of course there was a huge amount of variation in quality in period. Just like they made some really nice cars in the 60's and quite a few utter crap cars. Or more germane, in period they made armor like this 
as well as armor like this
Made differently, for different people, with different techniques, by different manufacturers, for different purposes.
In some periods, some types of swords were almost disposable, and vast quantities of 'munitions grade' weapons were manufactured for armies. Very good weapons though were made as the prized and valuable sidearms of wealthy and powerful.
I am delighted by the progress which has been made, but I do not think we have topped the achievements of the greatest minds of the medieval period. I don't mean to go on and on about this, but it is one of the fundamental things I have come to believe about martial history or what some people might call hoplology or spathology. We love to think that with modern methods and materials we can do everything better now than it was ever done by our ancestors. i do not believe that is the case.
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
Last edited by Jean Henri Chandler on Sat 12 Jan, 2008 7:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 7:30 am Post subject: |
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| Allan Senefelder wrote: | | Unless European smiths are getting a much better deal on steel, brass, bronzem ect. than American smiths ( I can speak to the dramatic price increase in these materials, it finally forced us to raise our prices) the price of European work is going up because thier raw materials costs have gone through the roof like every one else I suspect. |
yes I think you are right about that.
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Matt Easton
Location: Surrey, UK. Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 241
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| Sean Smith wrote: | | Yet how much would that 1570 sword cost when new, relative to the Albion? We sometimes tend to forget, these weapons helped people live or die, and their life's earnings were spent towards this end, as opposed to car payments, house payments, and simply being a "Weekend Warrior". |
Sean, I have made quite a lot of research into the costs of medieval swords (mostly from 14th-15thC wills from London), and I have to say that what you say above is a popular myth, but not actually true. By the 14thC swords were being mass produced and shipped around Europe from places like Milan and Brescia. There are records of second-hand swords being valued at as little as 2 pence - an English archer earned 3 or 6 pence a day. So actually, maybe surprisingly, swords in this period could be as affordable to people as swords are today. Obviously swords, like cars or anything else, came in a variety of qualities and luxury, and some were very very expensive. For example, Henry V gave some swords as diplomatic gifts which has Spanish blades and jewelled hilts - these were valued at £2000 each, which was a ridiculous amount of money at the time.
I have posted all of this information and more at the Schola Forum ( http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB2 )
Regards,
Matt
Schola Gladiatoria - www.swordfightinglondon.com
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/scholagladiatoria
Antique Swords: www.antique-swords.co.uk/
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Matt Easton
Location: Surrey, UK. Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 241
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| Posted: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| Allan Senefelder wrote: | | I have to say, having the great luxury of having Dr. Lee Jones just down the road and his generosity in sharing some of his extensive collection of original medieval blades with me, and having had Albions close to hand both times they've got it pretty spot on. Three of the peices Lee let me examine and handle are in "Records" and cover a good portion of the range that Albion spans time wise, and I found the corseponding Albions to be very, very close if not spot on. |
I have to agree actually - I have not handled any of the originals that any of the Albion models are based on, but I have handled quite a lot of originals of various types (including a couple featured in 'Records') from the whole period, and I think Albions are spot-on. I'd also like to mention that some originals feel horrible at first, until you consider their function. For example, a lot of 12thC swords feel clunky, but when you consider that they were primarily cavalry weapons, and almost always used with a shield, then they make sense.
Matt
Schola Gladiatoria - www.swordfightinglondon.com
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/scholagladiatoria
Antique Swords: www.antique-swords.co.uk/
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