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Quote:
I have nothing against Rob MacPherson, I'm not insulting or attacking the man. I just didn't think that helmet was equivalent of the antiques i showed. By pointing out that the Alps are not as high as the Himilaias, one is not insulting Switzerland.


Jean I will coin a term just for you, you are an antiqueophile. Much like the cult of the katana, you cannot prove that the antiques are superior you just believe it to be so no matter what and nothing will disuade you from it come hell nor high water. Fooled the curriatorial staff of one of the premier collections in the world of arms and armour but the guys work must be inferior because its new. What kinda car you drive a Model A?
Jean, sorry I forgot the little smiley at the end, its meant to be light hearted.
Allan Senefelder wrote:
Quote:
I have nothing against Rob MacPherson, I'm not insulting or attacking the man. I just didn't think that helmet was equivalent of the antiques i showed. By pointing out that the Alps are not as high as the Himilaias, one is not insulting Switzerland.


Jean I will coin a term just for you, you are an antiqueophile. Much like the cult of the katana, you cannot prove that the antiques are superior you just believe it to be so no matter what and nothing will disuade you from it come hell nor high water. Fooled the curriatorial staff of one of the premier collections in the world of arms and armour but the guys work must be inferior because its new. What kinda car you drive a Model A?


Actually I'm more of a debunker / cynic than a 'true believer' type.

I take no offense at all Allen but I believe you are inaccurately characterizing me as irrational just because you don't agree with me. Which is not a particularly convincing way to argue. I may have cited a large number of logical points you may disagree with, but I'm not waxing poetic about mystical concepts or channeling spirits of the bygone era to support my position. Like I said, your theory is unproven mate, regardless of how popular it is in this forum.

For the record, I'm not an "antiqueophile" or a Luddite, there are quite a few things I like a lot about the modern world. Like the internet.

I appreciate your friendly demeanor and I may be wrong, that is yet to be established, but I am not crazy, irrational, or ill-informed.

And I drive about an 8 year old car, for the record ;) Nice fast one..

J
Re: Albion, does it live up to the hype?
Michael Curl wrote:
So I'm new to this site, and serious sword knowledge in general. I have a small collection, but they are all those wall hanging non-authentic lotr swords and so forth. So I'm now expanding my knowledge on REAL swords and would like to know if Albion is as good as they seem to be.

Also, are there any better manufactures in your opinion?


Opinion only (like everything else in the flood of discussion in your thread) and for sake of brevity.

Yes.

Maybe.
Jean Henri Chandler wrote:
Well, there is the stock removal, which some people think is irrelevant but i do not. The heat treat. And yes, the steel.

Jean, you talked about your friend's new antique being light years ahead of any modern reproduction. Could you tell the superior heat treat, steel and manufacturing process by simply dry handling it?

Your whole point is becoming reliant on intangibles mate. Do you have a single shred of evidence to back your claims up? Why is forging automatically better than stock removal? How is a 15th century heat treat automatically better than a precisely controlled 21st century one? How, exactly, is medieval steel "better" than what is available today?

Guys like Kevin Cashen have worked very hard over the last few years to dubunk many of these myths. I'm sure if you have evidence or even experience to the contrary, they would love to hear it.
Taylor Ellis wrote:
Your whole point is becoming reliant on intangibles mate. Do you have a single shred of evidence to back your claims up? Why is forging automatically better than stock removal? How is a 15th century heat treat automatically better than a precisely controlled 21st century one? How, exactly, is medieval steel "better" than what is available today?


I didn't say medieval steel was better. I didn't say anything was automatically anything. Actually what i said was that medieval steel was not necessarily automatically worse than modern steel for making swords. That forging may actually be better than stock removal. That a 15th century heat treat done by a master Renaissance blacksmith could be better than a modern one. That there may in fact be other intangibles in sword making which are not currently apparent, just as quite a few features have been rediscovered (or at any rate, come into use) with makers of replicas in the last 8 years.

I am just trying to get people to think about some of the assumptions which are made about modern replicas. I never claimed to have proof of anything. I think I was clear this is my opinion all along. I find it really interesting how much emotion this discussion seems to engender.

At this point I can see I'm going to end up repeating things I already pointed out here. Such as that while I haven't proven anything, neither have you. Since I'm now apparently being perceived as the official luddite anti-Albion antichrist, I'll quit posting to this thread. There is now a wealth of information about Albion and the state of modern replicas for the OP. If this little discussion provokes any interesting thoughts, research, or further dialog among other more knowledgeable people than I the considerable effort of keeping up with it will have been worthwhile.

J
Jean Henri Chandler wrote:

At this point I can see I'm going to end up repeating things I already pointed out here. Such as that while I haven't proven anything, neither have you. Since I'm now apparently being perceived as the official luddite anti-Albion antichrist, I'll quit posting to this thread. There is now a wealth of information about Albion and the state of modern replicas for the OP. If this little discussion provokes any interesting thoughts, research, or further dialog among other more knowledgeable people than I the considerable effort of keeping up with it will have been worthwhile.

J


Actually as points to consider I'm starting to be convinced: Not convinced that here are no good counter arguments and not convinced about " TRUTH " in any absolute sense. By repeating and by being " challenged " to clarify your thoughts the debate now seems to me productive so far.

You are right that things could start going in circle though if ideas just end up being repeated again, unless new ways to look at what has been said so far or someone brings in a new idea or some facts !? Here maybe Peter Johnsson or other high end makers/researcher might be able to sort out what is the present state of knowledge and what we know we don't know as opposed to what we even don't suspect we don't know.

Bottom line I think we can come closer to the truth and end up with better replicas of swords in the future but the Albion swords are very good handling swords. Some things we may never be 100% about without a time machine.

One good thing though is that we seem to have been able to kick this around mostly in a productive way and come out of it better for it. :D :cool:
Jean Henri Chandler wrote:
Since I'm now apparently being perceived as the official luddite anti-Albion antichrist, I'll quit posting to this thread.


Come on. Why do people take things so personally and get all in a melodramatic huff? We're talking about our hobby, for crying out loud. We're not curing cancer here. :)

If you put an opinion out there, expect it to be challenged. If it is, don't quit posting in huff. If you're honestly tired of the discussion (you mentioned the "considerable effort" of keeping up with it: is a couple of days of reading and responding to posts really so draining? :) ), that's different. But quitting posting simply because others disagree with you seems more childish that you intend.
Chad Arnow wrote:
Jean Henri Chandler wrote:
Since I'm now apparently being perceived as the official luddite anti-Albion antichrist, I'll quit posting to this thread.


Come on. Why do people take things so personally and get all in a melodramatic huff? We're talking about our hobby, for crying out loud. We're not curing cancer here. :)



The second hardest thing is changing someone's mind with a good argument. The most difficult thing is to change one's mind based on someone else's good/better argument. ;) :lol:

( NOTE: This applies to everyone, me included, and not aimed at any one in particular in this Topic discussion. :cool: )

Also with a good debate one doesn't give up a position without every effort at finding a good rebuttal i.e. cave in and give up too easily. The changing of mind, if any, should come after cool reflection if the opposing arguments or proof seem better: This is not easy to do when emotion(s) is factored in.

One could compare a good debate to a good competitive sword bout: One doesn't give up before it's done, but one has to accept a clear result when it happens. And this is the best way to learn I think.

If a definite conclusion is not possible one can arrive at some areas of certainty and isolate what remains uncertain.
It is my feeling that alot of what has been put forth in this thread is based on perceptions that lack concrete evidence. Perceptions based on "belief". Short of overwhelming undeniable evidence, changing ones "beliefs" concerning anything is one of the more difficult things to try and accomplish. Sooner climb My Everest successfully. Many folks in the sword community hold to different "beliefs" (whether factual or not) concerning all sorts of aspects of our common interest. Only time and research will tell the end of this tale....
Jean Henri Chandler wrote:
That there may in fact be other intangibles in sword making which are not currently apparent, just as quite a few features have been rediscovered (or at any rate, come into use) with makers of replicas in the last 8 years.


Excellent point.

I'm not sure how likely it is, though. The reason most reproduction sword makers knew so little10 years ago was becasue few people cared about such things. With the level of attention this is getting nowadays, it's hard to see how it is possible to miss something significant. Things tend to happen that surprise us, though, so you never know.

I think we should continue to act and form options based on what we actually know today (what else can we do?) but leave our minds open to new discoveries, and, as you said, the very fact that new discoveries may yet be out there.
Jean Henri Chandler wrote:
I didn't say medieval steel was better. I didn't say anything was automatically anything.


You said: The reason the better period originals are better than the best modern replicas are simple...

Quote:
Actually what i said was that medieval steel was not necessarily automatically worse than modern steel for making swords
.
Fair enough.

Quote:
That forging may actually be better than stock removal.

How? Modern metallurgists deny this is the case. Why do you disagree with them?

Quote:
That a 15th century heat treat done by a master Renaissance blacksmith could be better than a modern one.

This is your strongest point I think. But its also completely impossible to judge by simply handling period weapons. Much more reseach needs to be done here I think.

Quote:
That there may in fact be other intangibles in sword making which are not currently apparent, just as quite a few features have been rediscovered (or at any rate, come into use) with makers of replicas in the last 8 years.

If you are talking about original designs I agree 100%. Absolutely. I can think of 3 makers in the entire world who I think approach the better period smiths. And like you said, I wonder how they place themselves.

Quote:
I am just trying to get people to think about some of the assumptions which are made about modern replicas. I never claimed to have proof of anything. I think I was clear this is my opinion all along. I find it really interesting how much emotion this discussion seems to engender.

You can tell how emontional people are over the internet? Your obviously a much more intuitive bloke than me! ;)

For the record, I largely agree with you, including about the helmet, and especially so about modern sword designs. For all we know you may be 100% correct: the heat treat on the original Brescia might be far superior to what Albion does today. The steel might be as close in quantity to made no difference. But you arent going to know that unless you have a metallurgist examine them or you do a side by side destructive test. Considering very little of either has been done, forming an absolute opinion is pointless.

Quote:
At this point I can see I'm going to end up repeating things I already pointed out here. Such as that while I haven't proven anything, neither have you.

Mate its a matter of logic. If you have a 100% accurate copy of something, made with at least as good material, the only question mark is the heat treat. If you havent tested that, how can you generalize and say the better period originals are better than the best modern replicas? It isnt a matter of opinion any more, the product is identical. Heat treating is a variable that can be tested.

Quote:
Since I'm now apparently being perceived as the official luddite anti-Albion antichrist, I'll quit posting to this thread. There is now a wealth of information about Albion and the state of modern replicas for the OP. If this little discussion provokes any interesting thoughts, research, or further dialog among other more knowledgeable people than I the considerable effort of keeping up with it will have been worthwhile.

J

Aw come on mate, dont be like that. I'm no fanboy: I have owned 1 next gen sword. For me this discussion has nothing to do with Albion, more about the state of the industry in general. :)
Actually, the heat treat COULD be tested on the Brescia original with very little detriment to the sword in a practical sense when considering a hardness evaluation. Granted, even the best high quality hardness tester dimples the material (part of the process). Still, this is very unlikely to happen.
Albion hype
I think somehow we got way off the subject, the question was " Does Albion live up to the hype". The answer is simple, YES. I hope Michael didn't give up on us and go to another sword forum.
Re: Albion hype
Nick B. wrote:
I think somehow we got way off the subject, the question was " Does Albion live up to the hype". The answer is simple, YES. I hope Michael didn't give up on us and go to another sword forum.


Agreed. I think there are some people in this forum who REALLY need to learn how to create a new topic when a thread is threatened with a hijacking...
Re: Albion hype
Nick B. wrote:
I think somehow we got way off the subject, the question was " Does Albion live up to the hype". The answer is simple, YES. I hope Michael didn't give up on us and go to another sword forum.


:D
But for those of us neutrals following this thread with interest it's been a good read,
Decent discussion of many things,
i personally do not own anything from Albion but have reccomended them to to others in the past,purely on the strength of Mike's faultless service and friendliness,and due to the likes of people here offering good and bad opinions of them,

For the prices the stuff looks pretty good,
normally kills the deal bringing one into the UK last time i looked,but i have other avenues to follow at similer rates,so it's null and void to me,
But this thread has been appreciated :cool:

As to the forging-stock removal,
after normalising,things are meant to be about even,
but forging does give alot more freedom of material,plus material saving on curved blades,as opposed to cutting a blank out of a large sheet,
i'd also be interested in Peter's thought's if he has the time,
Cheers All,
:D
Re: Albion hype
Jeremiah Swanger wrote:
Nick B. wrote:
I think somehow we got way off the subject, the question was " Does Albion live up to the hype". The answer is simple, YES. I hope Michael didn't give up on us and go to another sword forum.


Agreed. I think there are some people in this forum who REALLY need to learn how to create a new topic when a thread is threatened with a hijacking...


Eh, it's just thread drift. Bound to happen when people get passionate about something. Plus, this is far from the worst example I've seen. :p
This discussion has included many interesting points that really got me thinking and I wanted to add a few comments.

For me, Albion definitely lives up to the hype. I say this mainly based off of the research that I know goes into every one of their swords. Not to take away from other companies that have extensive research into their product, but Albion simply has many more examples from the period that I am interested in than any other company out there right now. I only own 1 Albion sword and the main reason I purchased it was because I was able to handle a few Albion swords, speak with some Albion staff, and most importantly speak with PJ at an event and realize the extent of his knowledge on swords. I consider myself a decent craftsman and my intent is to one day make my own swords. With the exhaustive research that PJ has done I consider handling and understanding the properties of the Albion swords just as good, if not better than being able to examine period originals! In handling a few Albion swords of a certain type I can get an idea of what that type should be because those few were modeled after the numerous originals researched first hand. So to me the value of Albion's swords lies in their research and dedication to creating swords that are true to the past.

As to the discussion of old vs. new. As an engineer who knows a little about steel, I can say that modern steel is definitely more consistent, homogeneous, and free of defects. Using this and a stock removal method should produce consistent, quality blades with few surprises. However, this does not automatically make the blades better. It could be that slight variations in chemistry, grain flow, or heat treat throughout the overall blade introduced by hand forging in an uncontrolled environment combine in a positive manner to improve the blade. Just look at Wootz steel as an example. The properties varied hugely throughout the entire blade and that variation is exactly what made those blades exceptional and unique.

Great thread and great discussion.
Did any of the people concerned about topic wandering stop to think that their ruminations on topic wandering are in fact off-topic?

:)

As always, if you have a concern about a thread's direction, use the tools we've created to contact a moderator. That's a better course of action than complaining about it after the fact.

In this case, separating out the thread once it moved into other areas of discussion would have been difficult or impossible as many posts contained both on- and off-topic thoughts (do they get put into the split-off thread or stay where they were? Etc.). Plus, some threads are organic in nature and as in human discussions, evolve over time.

Nearly every thread goes off-topic at some point. It's the nature of human conversation. Sometimes it's necessary for us to step in and steer it back. Here we chose not to as it covered a lot of interesting ground. Also, how we judge modern products vs. antiques is indeed relevant to the original question.
To the original question: I find that Albion swords do live up to the hype. Granted, they are not cheap, but like others have mentioned, a lot of the price comes from the research involved in the design phase. I have handled a majority of the next gen line, and all of the museum line pieces at one time or another, and have liked nearly everyone of them. I've personally owned two, although both have been sold to cover other expenses. One good thing about them, that you may not have thought of, is that they hold value fairly well. If you do purchase one, but decide to resell it down the line, you will find that it has retained a good portion of it's original value.

I do not feel qualified to comment on the modern vs antique discussion, but suffice it to say that Albions, are in my opinion, worth the money. In fact, I put an order in for a new one this very afternoon. :D
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