[Mike Capanelli]

[Jean Henri Chandler]

I catch your drift alright, and all I can say is, let me know if you change your mind when you handle a real good quality antique weapon (there being high and low end antiques just like there are high and low end replicas). Look at the armor photos I posted. Have you ever seen any modern reproduction armor as good as those first three photos?

As for your comparison to the naive guy with the fetish for oldness, make your assumptions as you please. I'm not that guy.

I find it funny how every year for 8 years now, I've been told the same thing on some forum or another, usually by somebody who has spent a lot of money buying reproductions: we are right at this moment at the pinnacle of the art of sword reproduction. Whatever technical points I may have raised are rubbish. It simply doesn't get any better than this, especially back in those olden days when they didn't know how to measure a strait line and didn't even have toilet paper. The reproductions we make now are better, because we have better steel now, lasers, CnC mills and etc. And yet every year they come out with new improvements for these perfect reproductions which seem to usually correspond coincidentally enough to making them more precisely like the originals. I mean isn't that basically what Peter Johnnson does for Albion? Maybe the real Brescia Spadona was flawed in certain aesthetic ways. But the Albion copy of it seems to be one of the best performing weapons in their line... it is also one of the most carefully measured and precise replicas in their line.

I've been to Europe, lived over there. I've been in the places these folks built. And I've seen the weapons they made, the "real" ones. Those folks knew what they were doing in my opinion, and were making swords for people whose lives depended on them. Not for putting on walls or once in a blue moon, cutting a pool noodle which is what 95% of people who buy swords do with them now days.

I'll tell you one thing I know for sure. Like a lot of people I've been studying the martial arts systems they used with those swords for several years now and I can say without a doubt that the Art in those manuals is better for armed combat than any modern martial art in existence. A quantum leap better. I have yet to see a convincing argument as to why I should assume that our replicas -made in a time when swords are no longer used for warfare or dueling- are superior.

I'm sorry, I have nothing against you, but what I see here is rationalization. Just because your high quality replicas may not be better or even quite as good as the original swords they were based upon doesn't invalidate your collection. I think they are actually amazingly close replicas, and so far beyond the replicas I was seeing (including the old Albion ones) when I was first getting into this that it's really breathtaking. But not so breathtaking that I lose my sense of perspective. That doesn't mean King Henry would have been better off going into Agincourt with a modern replica than the sword he really had. Call me crazy.


J

[Chad Arnow]

[Jean Henri Chandler]

[Jean Henri Chandler]

[Chad Arnow]

[Chad Arnow]

[Jared Smith]

This thread seems to have strayed away from Albion, swords (primarily what they make), and the question of hype.

Based on development effort (we often glimpse previews of this in progress posts by Albion over several months, sometimes mentioning blade changes, etc. that they go through before deciding a model is ready to produce), research, quality of materials, and a high standard for final finish, it does not seem reasonable to expect lower end market prices.

As far as quality compared to originals, the use of modern homogeneous materials and high tech heat treat “should” produce something at least mechanically equal or better than many medieval swords. At the Oakeshott Institute, there are some articles about the metallurgy of steel from that era. Most of the time, metallurgy was not particularly great or consistent throughout an item (armour, sword, etc.)

A lot have people have said they love their products, but can not afford them. That is a choice of economy. Similarly, I admire Porsche sports cars, and understand why they cost what they cost. I consider them too expensive for my need, which is just cheap and simple transportation. That does not make them over-hyped, or overpriced compared to the labor, performance, esthetics, and support that the company invests in their products.

[Anders Backlund]

Albions's swords are way too expensive for me, but that's not to say they are way too expensive period. As has been pointed out, you get a good sword for your money.

I can't really criticize the stock removal method they use either, because to be honest, if I had access to the kind of machinery and materials as they do I'd be churning the things out by the hundreds as well. I would still prefer a hand-forged blade, but I think it's silly to suggest a machine-produced sword isn't "real" or something.

If I have any criticism for Albion, it's their lack of variation; the fact that they only produce medieval European swords. I also find the majority of their designs largely uninteresting. (With some notable exceptions; I'd love to own a Valkyrja or Kingmaker, for instance.) But that's of course my personal opinion, and not a matter of the quality of their products.

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Jean Henri Chandler]

To me there is nothing mystical about it. The reason the better period originals are better than the best modern replicas are simple.

#1) There was a positive feedback loop between people using swords for killing and people making swords for killing.

Replicas have gotten much better since people (i.e. the consumer base) have learned more about how swords were used, but the feedback loop between collectors and re-enactors and HEMA practitoners is but a trickle of information compared to the vast armies (literally) of people using swords in period.

What we are doing today is essentially like making ancient food that looks pretty but nobody actually ever eats. We can study the ingredients in a mass spectrometor, cook it with the most advanced microwave ovens. But we don't know if it would give you indigestion. There is more to baking bread than eggs yeast sugar and flour.

#2) People knew how to use swords. It was common knowledge how to use swords.

Swords are more subtle and complex to use than most people think. It's really nothing like we see in Hollywood movies. A few hundred, maybe a few thousand people are now trying to reconstrruct the techniques of fencing from the old manuals. A lot of progress has been made in understanding the basics. But we still clearly have a lot to learn just to grasp the subtleties of a journeymans level of the Art, (despite some modern maestros claim to the contrary).

#3) There was an uninterrupted tradition of sword forging which went back to the Bronze age.

#4) There was a vastly larger number of people making and using swords

Well there is no argument on this one is there?

#5) The performance of swords was literally a matter of life or death back then. Makers of poor or flawed swords which failed in combat could very well have their own lives on the line.

The relationship between sword users and makers today is rather different from the old days. A swordmaker was an artisan but often literally lived at the suffrance of a Lord who may have been his customer. Today we the consumers of swords seem to worship the sword makers, including companies like Albion as if they were Lords themselves. Whether one could actually be killed for suggesting there was anything wrong with their product, I don't know, but sometimes I wonder....

#6) The swords were being made for weapons, they were among the most important things in society.

A sword in this period was as important as a car, or a computer is to us today. Sadly swords do not have this level of importance in our society now.


J

[Eric Meulemans]

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Jean Henri Chandler]

I agree Jean, well said, I know i haven't proven anything. At least you understand what I'm trying to say. I have discussed the actual specific details with some swordsmiths, who have a lot of ideas on this. But they will have to chime in here themselves (or not) because my own understanding of metalurgy, heat treatment etc. is too limited. I would probably mis-state something

But one example I can think of in the last ten years was distal taper. Nobody seemed to understand the concept eight or ten years ago. Now even lower end replicas do incorporate this somewhat subtle but often (depending on the sword) very important feature. Now it seems very obvious to us. Another example is Center of percussion. We may find that other aspects of blade design we don't think are critical now will emerge as being equally important.

I also believe there are similar subtleties in the forging process, in the metalurgy, etc. But as I said somebody who actually spends time in front of a forge will have to take it further, if they wish.

J

[Allan Senefelder]

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Eric Meulemans]

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

[Jean Henri Chandler]