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Jean Thibodeau
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 Posted: Thu 03 Jan, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Victor Lavenstein wrote: | Greetings All. My first post here after much lurking.
Just thought I'd add this image of Saracens attacking with curved swords to the discussion. Perhaps this was a European artistic convention of the time, even though straight swords were the norm in the Middle East?
http://www.publicsafety.net/image/knight_3.jpg
Victor |
Welcome to the Forum. 
Yes the curved sword on the right looks slimmer than a type XIV but also looks a bit like a curved European Sword: Maybe a curved type XV in the artwork ?
The type is sort of irrelevant, except that I want to mention seeing a specific resemblance, but the point is that it looks somewhat like a European sword drawn curved: The strait guard and round pommel mostly.
Would some period Middle eastern sword have actually looked very much like curved European swords around 1250 to 1350 before sabres are known to be common later on ?
The artist might have gotten the concept correct if the Middle Eastern swords of the period where often curved or maybe just commonly thought to be curved ? In many ways European falchions look a lot like the " Hollywood " idea of an oriental Cimeterre ( French spelling ). The artist may then have " imagined " a sabre based on what he knew ?
In any case , more speculations from me, and thanks for finding artwork to support further discussion(s). 
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Fri 04 Jan, 2008 1:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Thu 03 Jan, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Victor Lavenstein wrote: | Greetings All. My first post here after much lurking.
Just thought I'd add this image of Saracens attacking with curved swords to the discussion. Perhaps this was a European artistic convention of the time, even though straight swords were the norm in the Middle East?
http://www.publicsafety.net/image/knight_3.jpg
Victor |
Interesting.
Note that in this picture all the Saracens' equipment is of the same distinct style, including their swords.
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Thu 03 Jan, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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Well, since there where so few other differences, the existence of curved swords might have been enough to make them "iconic" of eastern arms.
When asking a returning crusader to describe the arms and armour of the muslims, he would (especially early on) answer "They are much like us, only they have round shields, and some have curved swords"
Since he is asked to identify differences.
However, some sources only have one of the features. The Mac has only the round shields, the illustation posted by Mikko only the curved swords.
Probably, this varied with what anecdotes the illustrator had heard.
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Thu 03 Jan, 2008 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Victor Lavenstein wrote: | Greetings All. My first post here after much lurking.
Just thought I'd add this image of Saracens attacking with curved swords to the discussion. Perhaps this was a European artistic convention of the time, even though straight swords were the norm in the Middle East?
http://www.publicsafety.net/image/knight_3.jpg
Victor |
Very interesting. Thanks for posting that, Victor! I'm certainly willing to change my mind based on the evidence.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Gavin Kisebach
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| Posted: Thu 03 Jan, 2008 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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A though arises that perhaps the illustrator is guessing at the form of a sword described Biblically. Curved swords were certainly present in ancient Canaan and Egypt, so perhaps this is not an attempt at a shamshir so much as a guess at something much older, such as a kophesh. If the artist were versed in the Bible, which he almost certainly was, then that might explain his interpretation. Here is what I found.
Judith 16:9 Her sandals ravished his eyes, her beauty took his mind prisoner, and the fauchion passed through his neck.
SCIMITAR
sim'-i-tar, -ter (akindke): Formerly given as "fauchion" in the King James Version Judith 16:9, the weapon which Judith took down from the rail of the bed at Holofernes' head, and with which she severed his head from his body.
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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 04 Jan, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: Curved Swords |
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Here is a thread that covers some of these pictures and discusses some of the possibilities for these curved swords appearing in art. The curved swords show up about half way through the thread which has got a lot of good info included thanks to Richard's hard work.
The Difference Between a Messer and a Falchion?
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...mp;start=0
I have been looking into these for a while and still do not have a satisfactory solution to why they depicted these. Some of the possible explanations seem to work in one picture but in the next they will illustrate other types so just saying that they are trying to show a curved sword does not seem to fit. The curved sword blade was probably more common in Europe at that time then the Near East.
There is evidence that this did become convention over time for the "outsider" to be depicted with more curved blades but it does not always hold true. Probably a dissertation in there for anyone looking for a topic 
Best
Craig
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Peter Dietl
Location: Munich/Germany Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Fri 04 Jan, 2008 10:47 am Post subject: |
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I found this in the book "Die Condottieri", it shows Filippo Scolari, Firenze, about 1445.
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