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Jean Thibodeau
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 Posted: Mon 17 Dec, 2007 8:25 am Post subject: Re: Function for the lug? |
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| Peter Johnsson wrote: | Here is an example of an extra parrying device on another type of Venetian hilt of the same or ever so slightly later time period.
I cannot say exactly how they were used, but to me they suggest a similar use as what you see in some manuals showing messer fighting: a kind of backhand parry, where a stop of some kind to keep an opponents blade away or even lock it may be a good thing. |
Very interesting but looks as if the function would be more trapping a blade in principle similar to some parrying daggers with notches of projections on the blade near the guard. ( Some of the Spanish parrying daggers with the wide triangular plates protecting the back of the hand and with a wide ricasso with semicircular cutouts on each side of the narrower main blade).
Better leverage with the spur and a safety margin ( Further from the hand ) for that backhand parry or extra protection when using the false edge in an attack that might turn into a parry ? I'm just guessing here.
And again, this one is getting more and MORE tempting ! Oh, and what period range would the Doge be found ? I was thinking between 1450 to 1525 ??? Just curious.  
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Mon 17 Dec, 2007 10:39 am Post subject: |
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Yeah that jibes very well with the idea of the pommel being used for hooking wrists and opponents swords, it's essentially the same kind of fighting. I agree with your assessment Peter that is kind of what I was (vaguely) visualizing, though I'm not precise on how the back spur would work, I suspect it's something just like that.
All in all a lethal weapon with a nice combination of specialized features, this is the weapon of a true killer.
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Justin King
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 18 Dec, 2007 6:07 am Post subject: |
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The more I look at this sword the harder it becomes to live without it....I was attracted to this style when I first saw a picture of one but it is even more fascinating to me now that I could own a decent repro.
I find it interesting that those who don't like it seem to REALLY not like it.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 18 Dec, 2007 6:48 am Post subject: |
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Oh, the spur is at the end of the ricasso at the top ( false edge side ) of the blade and seems to be at the full thickness of the ricasso. This long thick ricasso would seem' I would guess, make the forte of the blade very rigid and maybe affect positively the quality of parries by the forte ? Again some real fencing experts would have to chime in here as I'm only making assumptions based on what I think the design suggest.
Oh, by the way I broke down an BOUGHT a DOGE this morning and I'm having it shipped to Russ Ellis for a custom scabbard.
The current production time estimate by Mike at Albion is around 16 weeks ( But could be faster  )
Mike was super fast replying within minutes to my e-mail ordering the Doge. 
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Fabrice Cognot
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 18 Dec, 2007 11:59 am Post subject: |
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IMO the back spur would work similarly - though not exactly - like the third little thingy on a Messer's guard - just like Jean said, with an additional, intended purpose. That's why you find a similar thing on later XVIth century Dusacks - to simulate the third quillon.
PhD in medieval archeology.
HEMAC member
De Taille et d'Estoc director
Maker of high quality historical-inspired pieces.
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Pierre T.
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| Posted: Tue 18 Dec, 2007 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
Oh, by the way I broke down an BOUGHT a DOGE this morning and I'm having it shipped to Russ Ellis for a custom scabbard.
The current production time estimate by Mike at Albion is around 16 weeks ( But could be faster )
Mike was super fast replying within minutes to my e-mail ordering the Doge. |
wow, you are not one to hesitate! I am really looking forward to hearing your comments once you have it in hand.
Justin King:
This is definitely a "love it or hate it" design. I'm still not sure which way I'm going to swing, but whatever way people feel about this sword, it's going to be a strong opinion - it will not leave people indifferent.
Pierre
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B. Stark
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 19 Dec, 2007 11:04 am Post subject: |
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I would imagine that the spur serves the same purpose a the nagel on the Soldat. To help prevent a blade from sliding down past that point. I percieve that it could be used then as a leverage area(being in the strong of the blade) against the other blade. It is certainly an intriguing and unique characteristic.
"Wyrd bi∂ ful aræd"
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Anders Backlund
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| Posted: Fri 21 Dec, 2007 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Peter Johnsson wrote: |
Hej Anders, |
Hallå. 
| Quote: | The concept drawings are visualizations of ideas. The sword is not fully developed when this drawing is made. The concept is a guide and an attempt to summarize the visual aspect of the project (sometimes even before it has begun). As the sword grows gradually from the plane of ideas into our world of solid shadows it will invariably go through transformations. I try to stay true to the concept as much as possible, as long as it does not mean the final sword would be for the worse if I did *not* subject it to change.
It happens that I come across new facts as I keep researching a sword type during development. It would be wrong of me *not* to make use of the new data, simply because I did not have access to that at the time I made the concept drawing.
In the case of the Doge, the sword would have been clumsy if the concept drawing was followed in every detail. Some of these hilts indeed have clubbed ends of the knuckle guard (but slimmer than how I showed in the concept drawing), others have this tapering end that I made on the final design. As I carved the original wax, I found that the latter solution fitted better with the overall character of the hilt and blade. |
So, was it a purely aestethic change, or a practical one?
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 21 Dec, 2007 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Anders Backlund wrote: | [
So, was it a purely aestethic change, or a practical one? |
Both
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sat 22 Dec, 2007 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Peter Johnsson wrote: | | Anders Backlund wrote: | [
So, was it a purely aestethic change, or a practical one? |
Both |
What I notice most is that the spur seems further from the guard than in the drawing and some subtle change in curve and counter curves and tapering of shapes.
I'm looking forward to seeing and handling mine up close.
So what where the practical changes: Now I'm really curious to know as much as possible about this sword.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 26 Mar, 2008 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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Well my Doge is in the hands of Russ Ellis for scabbard making so Albion's ( Mike's ) estimate of production time and shipping from Albion was a bit faster than promised by a few weeks ( 12 weeks instead of 16 weeks approx. ).
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Tim May
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| Posted: Thu 27 Mar, 2008 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | Well my Doge is in the hands of Russ Ellis for scabbard making so Albion's ( Mike's ) estimate of production time and shipping from Albion was a bit faster than promised by a few weeks ( 12 weeks instead of 16 weeks approx. ). |
That's awesome, Jean! Let us know how it handles, it looks like a great sword, perfect for transitioning between cut and thrust
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Pierre T.
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| Posted: Fri 18 Apr, 2008 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | Well my Doge is in the hands of Russ Ellis for scabbard making so Albion's ( Mike's ) estimate of production time and shipping from Albion was a bit faster than promised by a few weeks ( 12 weeks instead of 16 weeks approx. ). |
I too am looking forward to hearing your comments.
Pierre
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This is a standard topic