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Vincent Le Chevalier




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PostPosted: Sat 15 Dec, 2007 4:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Douglas Huxtable wrote:
But what I may say again and I know this is my word against yours but, why hire 12 men when you could hire 1 with a good shot? Its hard to imagine a man with a gun missing from farely close range, no matter how inaccurate the guns were.


Such a thing happened in France on August 22, 1572, when Maurevel attempted to assassinate the protestant leader Gaspard de Coligny. He missed his shot... And once again, the killer was relying more on the protection from powerful characters than on his skill to survive the attempt.

Frankly I don't think the display of skill is of much importance. If anything, Lafayette's twelve men would have been a demonstration of the ability to mobilize many people with a common goal, and in my opinion this would have been a greater showcase of power than whatever skill the lone assassin might have shown.

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Douglas Huxtable





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PostPosted: Sat 15 Dec, 2007 4:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting and, fair point, I guess it would show he was well connected aswell, I have a question for everyone which is:

Are there any interesting cases of kings/nobles doing their own dirty work? Obviously lets not go as far back as Julius caesar and the stabbings and poisonings that took place then even though they are very interesting.
Anyone? Happy

Humans trail a path of light, all land and space that hasnt been trodden by man is dark, all dark must be trodden to bring illumination, so that all others can follow the light that we bring.
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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Sat 15 Dec, 2007 5:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quoted from www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk.

By the end of 1305 there were signs that Edward I believed that Bruce was plotting against him: but Bruce's repeated switching of sides meant he was also little trusted by many in Scotland. Bruce, it seems, was planning to seize the arguably vacant crown of Scotland for himself. His main obstacle in Scotland was John III Comyn. On 10 February 1306 the two met to discuss their differences in the safe and neutral Church of the Grey Friars in Dumfries. It seems they disagreed, either because both wanted the Scottish crown for themselves, or because Comyn refused to lend his support to Bruce's planned uprising against the English. Robert Bruce drew a dagger and stabbed Comyn in front of the high altar of the church. Bruce fled the church, telling waiting comrades outside what had happened. One of them, Sir Roger Kirkpatrick, went back in and finished off the seriously wounded Comyn.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sat 15 Dec, 2007 8:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Douglas Huxtable wrote:
But what I may say again and I know this is my word against yours but, why hire 12 men when you could hire 1 with a good shot? Its hard to imagine a man with a gun missing from farely close range, no matter how inaccurate the guns were.
Its not that hard to shoot someone in the chest, damaging many vital organs, even if it does not kill the target instantly hes hardly going to be in good shape and will be deterred from doing what ever he was doing to annoy someone in the first place?
What stronger message could be sent out that your target has been killed? Especially if the deed was only done with one Assassin/Thug or whatever.
Imagine this; what would scare you the most:

12 men shoot dead one target, this hardly makes for a clean kill and shows no skill whatsoever if the man is simply riddled with shot.

1 man shoots dead one target, this makes the killer seem more skilled and sends out a stronger message that :"With only 1 man I can have you killed, you will not suspect a thing."
But thats my opinion. Happy


I would be more scared to know that multiple people around me in the crowd around me could be an assassin than knowing only one of them was. And one man with one unreliable hand gonne could blow himself up as easily as he could shoot the target. Using one of those weapons might be less reliable than you'd think.

And again, one man would need to get fairly close to have chance of being accurate enough to do the job. Late 14th century gonnes were notoriously fickle and inaccurate, plus not easily concealable (due to their size and the lit match cord as mentioned above). They were considered unreliable, which may be one reason we see them so often combined with other weapons early in the era of firearms (see here: http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spot_combo.html). So hiding a number of men increases your chances, assuming you can successfully lure your target to where you're set up. Plus, the extra men you hired could kill or subdue the men your target likely travels with, lessening the chances of your hired thugs being taken out by your target's entourage/companions.

So more people again equals a higher chance of the target being the dead one at the end of the day.

Again, I think being able to summon more people would show more strength than one. Also, the fear aspect could be big. I may not want them to "not suspect a thing," I might want them to live in fear that they could be surrounded by my people. I believe assassinations in public (again, not poisonings or smotherings) during that time period were less often subtle surgical strikes than brute blunt force applied to the enemy.

Happy

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George Hill




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PostPosted: Sat 15 Dec, 2007 8:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, as far as the lone assassin and the surgical strike....

There is that murder in one of the Icelandic sagas I mentioned before. The fellow used the cover of a great storm to cover both his approach and his retreat, and he stabbed the man through the body with a spear. In fast, attack so fast no one knows what is going on, leave the spear rammed through him, and out again.

Also, the fellow would have been what is called 'farmer' class, but I'm brought to understand that "land-holder' might be a translation with more intact context.

I don't recall which saga it was at present.... IT was the one where the sword named something like "Grey-Blade" was borrowed from a slave for a duel, and then the fellow who borrowed it refused to return it, and killed the slave with it, breaking it, and it was remade into the spear used above.

It seemed to carry with it something of a curse from the murder of it's rightful owner, and everyone ended badly. But the curse was never directly stated, or even hinted at, it seemed to be very -between the lines-

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sat 15 Dec, 2007 10:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

George Hill wrote:
Well, as far as the lone assassin and the surgical strike....

There is that murder in one of the Icelandic sagas I mentioned before. The fellow used the cover of a great storm to cover both his approach and his retreat, and he stabbed the man through the body with a spear. In fast, attack so fast no one knows what is going on, leave the spear rammed through him, and out again.

Also, the fellow would have been what is called 'farmer' class, but I'm brought to understand that "land-holder' might be a translation with more intact context.



Was that a murder-for-hire situation or just murder/revenge?

Happy

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sat 15 Dec, 2007 12:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka Borscak wrote:
Quoted from www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk.

By the end of 1305 there were signs that Edward I believed that Bruce was plotting against him: but Bruce's repeated switching of sides meant he was also little trusted by many in Scotland. Bruce, it seems, was planning to seize the arguably vacant crown of Scotland for himself. His main obstacle in Scotland was John III Comyn. On 10 February 1306 the two met to discuss their differences in the safe and neutral Church of the Grey Friars in Dumfries. It seems they disagreed, either because both wanted the Scottish crown for themselves, or because Comyn refused to lend his support to Bruce's planned uprising against the English. Robert Bruce drew a dagger and stabbed Comyn in front of the high altar of the church. Bruce fled the church, telling waiting comrades outside what had happened. One of them, Sir Roger Kirkpatrick, went back in and finished off the seriously wounded Comyn.


I would personally classify this as a good olde fashioned murder rather than an assassination (especially for the purposes of this discussion). It was a meeting that turned violent rather than a murder for hire. I think it's a different situation than what we're discussing here, but that's just my opinion.

Happy

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George Hill




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PostPosted: Sat 15 Dec, 2007 1:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:

Was that a murder-for-hire situation or just murder/revenge?


Murder/revenge.
An assassination doesn't have to involve money. It's the elimination of a specific target for whatever reason, as opposed to the mass violence on a battlefield, or the face to face confrontation of a duel, and involved a good bit of forethought, as opposed to say, a tavern stabbing or sudden brawl.


Hmm.... Actually, in Egil's saga. (I beleive it was Egil's saga. This isn't the saga I mentioned above.)

A great many of the Icelandic sagas involve King Harold Tanglehair/King Harold Fairhair, (he wouldn't brush it until he united Norway) as a supporting character, usually as a foe, since people went to Iceland to get away from him.

As I recall, Skallagrim's Brother...

...Thorgil? Thor-something. Every other person in the Sagas is named Thor-something in about fourty variations. MORE then every other person....

Nonetheless, he went off to fight in Harold's wars, Harold rewarded him, and then grew jealous of the power he gained as one of his major commanders. Harold had him off getting tribute from some other area, and he had kept a large number of well equiped troops to help him do it. This did involved certain fellows poisening Harold's ear against him... And in the in the end he had him killed, which involved an assault on his compound.

Later, he called on Thor-something's brother, Skallagrim, to serve, to make restitution for his brother's "treason." Skallagrim told him off, and then left. His friends came and told him that they saw a large number of Harold's men in all their war gear, leaving the party and following them, so they took axes and cut the bottoms out of all the boats on the lake, took the last boat, and left, knowing they couldn't be followed. So I suppose that would involve someone, (a king) sending out his mean to do his dirty work, and in full war gear at that.

I mention it because it rather fits the above description of sending a large number of your generalized warriors to do a particular person in.

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Fri 21 Dec, 2007 5:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
The assassin cult of the Hashshashin is supposed to be historical, but we have no proof they operated in Europe in the middle ages that I know of. They were suspected of being involved in some intrigue during the Crusades. We don't even know, though, whether they operated as lone assassins or in groups.


Hmm...to review the historical examples, I can only remember one example of an Ismaili assassin operating alone. It was an unsuccessful attempt again Saladin, and looking at the context I think it might not have been meant to succeed but rather to remind Saladin that the Assassins could still reach him whenever they wanted. The (successful) assassination of the King of Jerusalem was conducted by a team of two assassins, not one, and I think I remember other instances of them attacking with multiple assailants but absolutely none other where they sent only one.
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