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Shayan G





Joined: 26 Sep 2006

Posts: 140

PostPosted: Sat 01 Dec, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Haha gotcha! Eek!
If the weight didn't crush poor beast, the recoil would!
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Bram Verbeek





Joined: 27 Mar 2007

Posts: 217

PostPosted: Sat 01 Dec, 2007 6:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wonder, if fire is usually used to spook elephants, would it not be very dumb to fire rockets from them? Cannons could be even worse, as coupled with a deafening bang and a lot of smoke, the elephant would recieve more recoil than when it would be shot by the same cannon, thus providing tactile, visual and audial shock as wel as a smell that could spook them. Elephants dragging large cannons along can be useful, but horses could do the same thing cheaper, and -going back to the mongols- would be far more prevalent, I mean if one elephant falls, the cannon could no longer be taken further, but if the same cannon was towed by horses, spare horses from warriors could be used to drag it further.

There also is the problem that you might wish to use your elephants to scare knights, and leaving them in the back with your artillery would seem to me like a bad idea.

As a whole, I think elephants are too expensive or unwieldy to have anything to do with cannons or rockets.
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Federico I.





Joined: 15 Sep 2007

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sat 01 Dec, 2007 4:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

hi im new in this forum and i use it for historical research, im italian, i live in florence (anyone know stibbert museum?) and i have the passion for medieval amrours.
im transporting this passion in medieval 2 game for reproducing much more historical correction with new models particulary of XV sec. if someone want to help me with screens and idea it will apreciate
sorry for my english Blush
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Bram Verbeek





Joined: 27 Mar 2007

Posts: 217

PostPosted: Sun 02 Dec, 2007 9:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You probably will want to make a new topic for this. But I can tell you, I tend to like modding CA products into realism, and there are a lot of people with me, so I think people will help if you have specific and illustrated questions.
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R D Moore




Location: Portland Oregon
Joined: 09 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Sun 02 Dec, 2007 12:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Also found in Wikipedia: "Heavy arquebuses mounted on wagons were called arquebus à croc. These carried a ball of about 3.5 ounces.[3]". Anything like this or larger is going to create a lot of concussion when the projectile leaves the muzzle. I think firing anything like this, or showering with sparks, from the back of an elephant would reult in a ride with...on a scale of 1 to 10... a pucker factor of 10. Someone would have to use a pry bar to unseat you. Just an opinion.
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Thomas Watt




Location: Metrowest Boston
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Sun 02 Dec, 2007 3:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can't remember where I recall this from - whether a real authoritative source or not in other words - but I had the impression that war elephants tended to be skittish, and prone to trampling their owners when spooked in battle.
My recollection is that this was an observation of a battle, but for all I know could just as easily have been a movie source.
Does anyone else share - or know - a possible sourcing on that?

Have 11 swords, 2 dirks, half a dozen tomahawks and 2 Jeeps - seem to be a magnet for more of all.
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John Cooksey




Location: NW Ark
Joined: 15 Nov 2003

Posts: 291

PostPosted: Mon 03 Dec, 2007 9:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thomas Watt wrote:
I can't remember where I recall this from - whether a real authoritative source or not in other words - but I had the impression that war elephants tended to be skittish, and prone to trampling their owners when spooked in battle.
My recollection is that this was an observation of a battle, but for all I know could just as easily have been a movie source.
Does anyone else share - or know - a possible sourcing on that?


Not so much prone to trampling their owners, but prone to trample *anyone* nearby when panicked or in serious pain. The usual methods of routing an elephant formation included large caltrops on their path of advance, or closing with light troops to cut off trunks (or some other equally painful injury) in order to drive the animals wild. There were numerous methods developed from the time of Alexander (if not before) to the 15th century to deal with war elephants, but despite this, they were considered a valuable military asset from the Hellenistic period onward. Lots of people like to make the tank analogy, and it is not the poorest one, in my opinion. Elephants seemed to work best when used as part of a combined arms force, with supporting infantry all around to clear the path and ensure that the enemy doesn't get in close, under the elephant/howdah's formidable defences. They were at their worst when commanders used them to charge an opponent force over supposedly clear ground, as if they were some kind of super-heavy cavalry.
Certainly Temur, even though he was well-aware of the weaknesses of elephants, continued to use them against various western (Middle-Eastern) opponents to considerable effect.

I didn't surrender, but they took my horse and made him surrender.
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Shayan G





Joined: 26 Sep 2006

Posts: 140

PostPosted: Mon 03 Dec, 2007 11:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's the elephant at the Royal Armoury:


and another larger picture here:
http://www.cybershooters.org/Royal%20Armoury/Elephant.JPG
There's a video about that armor floating around youtube. I have to go to class but I'll post it later tonight.

Regards,
Shayan
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Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
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PostPosted: Mon 03 Dec, 2007 1:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some years ago I read an interesting article about the Northern Alliance fellows in Afghanistan fighting first the Russians, then the Taliban. They were actually able to fire off RPG-3's from the back of a horse... ONCE. They would take a particularly docile horse, and use that one so that it wouldn't shy prior to the rocket actually going off. After that experience, the horse was pretty shy of just about anything, though. (I would imagine so!) Thus the idea of firing off rockets from the backs of elephants is pretty far-fetched. I doubt seriously that they would put up with having rocket back-blast in their faces more than once.

Now, they might have used the elephants as transport, in order to get them into place, but firing them from their backs? I would rate that as "unlikely".

Cheers!

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Shayan G





Joined: 26 Sep 2006

Posts: 140

PostPosted: Mon 03 Dec, 2007 2:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's hilarious about the Northern Alliance, they were resourceful fighters and apparently rather experimental as well!

Here's the promised youtube. The segment on Mughal elephants, with great info on elephant armor and tactics, starts at 5:20 and continues into Part Two.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51FcH5wAe4c&feature=related

Edit to add: section one also has an intriguing bit about Mughal swords. They confuse pattern-welding with wootz, but it's a fun bit nevertheless.

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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Reading list: 7 books

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PostPosted: Fri 07 Dec, 2007 12:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thomas Watt wrote:
I can't remember where I recall this from - whether a real authoritative source or not in other words - but I had the impression that war elephants tended to be skittish, and prone to trampling their owners when spooked in battle.
My recollection is that this was an observation of a battle, but for all I know could just as easily have been a movie source.
Does anyone else share - or know - a possible sourcing on that?


Try this page about the elephants of Alexander the Great and his Successors:

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/Al-Ele.html
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