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Vincent Le Chevalier
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 Posted: Mon 12 Nov, 2007 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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I think another part of the problem with this use of a smallsword is that it doesn't look dangerous enough. The use is not obvious at all, its deadliness is not something widely known. I wouldn't trust a smallsword to stop an attacker before he attacks, if you see what I mean. So if worst comes to worst there is a definite risk of being forced to resort on deadly strikes, even when they are unnecessary... Simply because the attacker does not know the risk he is taking.
Being damaging without being deadly is also an option with the impact weapons that were suggested, and they give the benefit of looking intimidating even to the modern eyes.
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Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Shayan G
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| Posted: Mon 12 Nov, 2007 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'd just like to point out that I like this idea of his. Smallswords can be damaging without nesseracily being deadly, so even if worst comes to worst, he doesn't have to have a life of his conscience. |
I'd have to respectfully disagree. In a self-defense situation, you do not want a weapon whereby you will injure yet not halt the aggressor. Injuring the aggressor without instantly stopping them will only enrage them further.
In other words, in my opinion, you do not want a thin and pointy piece of metal as your only defense when your children, your wife, and yourself are at risk of assault, death, or worse. Guns have proven themselves time and time again as efficient tools of defense when used with skill. The articles Mr. Meulemans posted make it quite clear that there is no such thing as an instant stop with a smallsword. I would much rather risk the guilt of taking an aggressor's life than through hesitance having allowed harm befall my family.
That said, since you do not want a gun in the house, my vote wouldn't go for a sword either--frankly I think they're more dangerous in a bewildering, close-in, dirty dogfight where one barely has room to swing thanks to ceilings and walls. Unless the first strike stops the aggressor, they may take your weapon and use it against you. Fencing and close combat are quite dissimilar--hand to hand self-defense can be one of the ugliest situations on earth, no matter the sophistication or training of the combatants. A short baseball bat would be far more efficient at instantly negating a threat, in my opinion.
And this may be just me, but having a sword around the house with kids seems almost as dangerous as a gun--that is, if it is to be sitting out and ready for use against a home invader.
Just my two cents, I hope it was somehow helpful.
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Anders Backlund
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| Posted: Tue 13 Nov, 2007 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| Shayan G wrote: |
I'd have to respectfully disagree. In a self-defense situation, you do not want a weapon whereby you will injure yet not halt the aggressor. Injuring the aggressor without instantly stopping them will only enrage them further. |
Well, yeah. If the guy breaking into his home happens to be a viking berserker or something.
But really, we're talking about stabbing someone straight through the body with a meter worth of pointy steel. Stopping power or not, that's not something most people endure well.
| Quote: |
In other words, in my opinion, you do not want a thin and pointy piece of metal as your only defense when your children, your wife, and yourself are at risk of assault, death, or worse. Guns have proven themselves time and time again as efficient tools of defense when used with skill. The articles Mr. Meulemans posted make it quite clear that there is no such thing as an instant stop with a smallsword. I would much rather risk the guilt of taking an aggressor's life than through hesitance having allowed harm befall my family.
That said, since you do not want a gun in the house, my vote wouldn't go for a sword either--frankly I think they're more dangerous in a bewildering, close-in, dirty dogfight where one barely has room to swing thanks to ceilings and walls. Unless the first strike stops the aggressor, they may take your weapon and use it against you. Fencing and close combat are quite dissimilar--hand to hand self-defense can be one of the ugliest situations on earth, no matter the sophistication or training of the combatants. A short baseball bat would be far more efficient at instantly negating a threat, in my opinion. |
Well, you don't actually swing a smallsword, so that's a plus, at least. 
Of course, the very best idea when confronted with burglars -especially if we're talking aggravated burglary- is letting them take your stuff and then call the police once they leave. I doubt anyone owns anything that equals a human life in value.
| Quote: | | And this may be just me, but having a sword around the house with kids seems almost as dangerous as a gun--that is, if it is to be sitting out and ready for use against a home invader. |
Actually, in this case I'd say a sword is definitely preferable. If the kid cuts itself on the blade, at least they learn to respect it without, you know, killing themselves. Besides, most children know what sharp blades can do, having been around knives etc, but they may not have to same kind of respect for guns.[/i]
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Alex Oster
Location: Washington and Yokohama Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 410
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| Posted: Tue 13 Nov, 2007 10:07 am Post subject: |
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Look no further than history. Close quarter & confined quarter fighting. Your up close and in a hallway.
If guns are out, and you'll probably be in your jammies.... then go with what worked well for a few years...
Personally I say spear, but a good roman sized shield and falcata or gladius makes a formitable wall in a home hallway.
The pen is mightier than the sword, especially since it can get past security and be stabbed it into a jugular.
This site would be better if everytime I clicked submit... I got to hear a whip crack!
My collection: Various Blades & Conan related
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Jessica Finley
Industry Professional
Location: Topeka, Kansas Joined: 29 Dec 2003
Posts: 110
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| Posted: Tue 13 Nov, 2007 10:26 am Post subject: |
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As a mother of a 2-year old and a sword owner, I feel obligated to point out that a sword is a weapon. Especially as you intend to use it as such (not dulled for stage or other work). Therefore, if you are thinking that a sword would be safer to have around than a shotgun, I have to disagree. It's unlikely that the child will take off their head, but it is likely that they will hurt themselves with it, especially if it's leaning against your bed in easy reach.
My daughter has an obsession with all of my swords, and that is why my sharp longsword is always inside it's gun case and up where she cannot reach. I shudder to think of what she'd do to herself if she had free access to it.
All weapons should be treated with the respect that they deserve and this includes proper handling and storage.
Just a thought,
Jess
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Shayan G
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| Posted: Tue 13 Nov, 2007 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| Anders Backlund wrote: |
Well, yeah. If the guy breaking into his home happens to be a viking berserker or something.
But really, we're talking about stabbing someone straight through the body with a meter worth of pointy steel. Stopping power or not, that's not something most people endure well.
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As the articles posted above clearly demonstrate, a smallsword is not reliable when it comes to instantly halting an opponent's aggression. And no, it's not something most people endure well, but it doesn't take long for a man to assault you back with or without an eventually debilitating injury. Adrenaline coupled with the resilience of the human mind and body when engaged in combat leave no room for "probably" when fighting for your family and home. Additionally, a home invader with added resilience due to drugs or mental instability may simply shrug off a flesh wound; there are instances in the news every day, and police reports are full of such examples. Furthermore, if the assailant themselves have a firearm, a sword would be the pinnacle of futility.
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Well, you don't actually swing a smallsword, so that's a plus, at least.
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I should have clarified, I mean swords in general. My apologies. This wouldn't apply to a smallsword, but at this point in my post I felt it was evident a smallsword does not produce enough trauma to completely and instantly debilitate an opponent.
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Of course, the very best idea when confronted with burglars -especially if we're talking aggravated burglary- is letting them take your stuff and then call the police once they leave. I doubt anyone owns anything that equals a human life in value.
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Indeed, but burglaries generally take place when the occupant is not home. Home invasions are a different species of crime in which harming or threatening the occupants is part of the criminal's plan. And, a poorly timed burglary in which the criminal discovers the presence of the homeowner can all too easily morph into a much more severe situation. If the person breaks into your house at night or when an occupant would obviously be home, their intentions may be considered physically threatening.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_invasion
Again, this is my opinion, but it's based off of the advice of my martial arts instructor (besides reading a great deal of self-defense material from internationally respected experts), who has 32 years of dedicated martial study, and among having been in many random dangerous situations worked as a bouncer in downtown Washington DC, which has one of the highest murder and crime rates in the Western hemisphere--he has had to defend himself against all manner of knives and impromptu weapons (one reason he quit the job ). Which reminds me of one of his anecdotes-- he had a friend who was stabbed deeply in the side by a would-be mugger in a bar--the thing that struck me most about the story is that the man didn't even know he'd been stabbed until someone noticed the blood. He'd only felt it as a punch, and certainly, despite the depth and severity of the wound, had not been incapacitated.
My apologies for sharing a mildly disturbing story, but I simply cannot stress enough that I think a firearm or impact weapon would be preferable.
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Allen Reed
Location: Northwest, IL Joined: 19 Apr 2004
Posts: 78
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| Posted: Tue 13 Nov, 2007 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Donald Layne wrote: | Thanks for all the great feedback.
<Snip>
It gives me the ability to inflict lethal wounds. I understand what others have said about stopping power, but a punctured lung, neck, head, etc. are not light wounds. They would definitly slow or kill an assailant. If somebody gets too close, any sword or club will become awkward. At that point, it is time to destroy any body part that the intruder puts within your reach. It is amazing how fragile is the human body when pressure is applied just so.
Any other thoughts?
I am going to check out that "small sword" thread.
Donald |
Donald,
There is no such thing as a non-lethal attack with an edged weapon, as far as the law is concerned. That is why I can shoot a man with a two inch knife or a three foot sword. The important thing is how close is he and what do I judge his intent to be.
If your intruder comes through your locked bedroom door a small sword will be too little too late.
If you don't want a firearm in the house find out if your state allows you to own/carry a civilian Taser.
Allen
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Tue 13 Nov, 2007 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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This conversation has strayed quite far from the intent of this site. We must always be aware of the impression we are giving to readers who might already have a critical way of looking at those interested in historical weaponry and whatnot. Let's be careful not to add fuel to that fire by condoning the usage of historically-inspired weaponry for the act of modern home defense or other related activities. This site's purpose is to promote the collecting, appreciation, and study of historical usage of said weapons not to promote the use of them as a means to harm others in a modern context.
Thank you.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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A. Jake Storey II
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| Posted: Tue 13 Nov, 2007 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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Get a double action revolver. The trigger-weight is so high that a 12 year old would have a hard time shooting it... I have a hard time shooting with much precision...
Only you can deny yourself your rights.
Too ignore the rights of others, is to forfeit you own!
Thereby, in your crime, YOU bring Justice on your own head!!!
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Shayan G
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| Posted: Tue 13 Nov, 2007 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | This conversation has strayed quite far from the intent of this site. We must always be aware of the impression we are giving to readers who might already have a critical way of looking at those interested in historical weaponry and whatnot. Let's be careful not to add fuel to that fire by condoning the usage of historically-inspired weaponry for the act of modern home defense or other related activities. This site's purpose is to promote the collecting, appreciation, and study of historical usage of said weapons not to promote the use of them as a means to harm others in a modern context.
Thank you. |
Indeed, I hope I didn't encourage such an impression. If I did, let me just say I believe that historical weaponry has no place in responsible self-defense preparedness, and should be appreciated artistically, historically, and as a symbol of universal values of chivalry and honor.
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Donald Layne
Location: Texas Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Tue 13 Nov, 2007 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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There it is then.
Thanks to all who posted.
This thread can be locked or deleted.
Donald Layne
Nice hat.
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Gabriel Lebec
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 13 Nov, 2007 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Donald Layne wrote: | | This thread can be locked or deleted. |
Hello again Donald,
We prefer to do neither, but rely on our membership to respect a moderator's note when a thread gets off-topic. Our forum participants are generally good enough to desist after that. Also the original topic, your question asking about good smallswords, remains valid; if someone wanted to offer a new suggestion on that front, they would be welcome to.
Cheers,
-Gabriel L.
"The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of true art and true science." - Albert Einstein
________
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Alex Oster
Location: Washington and Yokohama Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 410
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| Posted: Tue 13 Nov, 2007 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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While I'm still online, this brings me to a slightly still on topic thought:
Are good small swords specificly for thrusting? I have noticed many with the deep fuller and triangular form, but what about non-trangular blades? Do good smallswords only come as such? I'm just not as fluant with their typologies as I would like to be.
oh, and to clairfy, my prior post related to the idea of close confines defence, not armed resistance to intruders.
The pen is mightier than the sword, especially since it can get past security and be stabbed it into a jugular.
This site would be better if everytime I clicked submit... I got to hear a whip crack!
My collection: Various Blades & Conan related
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 13 Nov, 2007 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Alex Oster wrote: | | Are good small swords specificly for thrusting? I have noticed many with the deep fuller and triangular form, but what about non-trangular blades? Do good smallswords only come as such? I'm just not as fluant with their typologies as I would like to be. |
Some have a minor edge, but I've never seen one with a very significant one. I have an antique that is sharp enough that if I grabbed it and pulled my hand quickly along it, it would cut me a bit, but otherwise isn't of much use for cutting. I've never encountered a smallsword fencing manuscript that advocated any form of cutting.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Donald Layne
Location: Texas Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Wed 14 Nov, 2007 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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Alex,
As far as I know, the Smallsword should be small, light, and needle sharp. The small and light characteristics (usually around one pound in weight) make it difficult to use it for delivering a useful cut. Also the control is much in the grip of the thumb and forefinger. Gripping it to deliver a useful cut would pretty much ruin its ability to buzz about like a hornet on speed.
Donald
Nice hat.
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Thu 15 Nov, 2007 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| Alex Oster wrote: | | Are good small swords specificly for thrusting? |
Yes.
Blade form is all about lightness versus stiffness, speed and control, accuracy. The colichemarde blade included and only had a stronger forte to be able to hold and deflect heavier blades.
The ts could do with any of the examples given in the 'which smallsword' topic here.
Wether it will serve the intented purpose of is a question and as pointed out not the scope of this forum
Stephen Fisher has an extensive page on the smallsword on this site, including availeable 'replicas'. 'Replicas' between brackets as some of his are just as real as the original ones, only newer 
peter
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Alex Oster
Location: Washington and Yokohama Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 410
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| Posted: Thu 15 Nov, 2007 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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"The colichemarde blade"
You are refereing to the blade profile one sees in, say, the hanwei reproduction scottish court sword or the cold steel reproduction?
If so, then I see what you mean, though i though the idea was to create a more open/triangular wound that would stay open and conduce free flow exsanguination.
The pen is mightier than the sword, especially since it can get past security and be stabbed it into a jugular.
This site would be better if everytime I clicked submit... I got to hear a whip crack!
My collection: Various Blades & Conan related
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Gabriel Lebec
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Thu 15 Nov, 2007 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Alex,
Neither of those items has a colichemarde blade. Here's a link to an A&A custom colichemarde smallsword: http://www.arms-n-armor.com/custom932.html
Note the wide, strong forte and the narrow forward section. They're two distinct sections, not just a function of smooth taper.
Cheers,
-GLL
"The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of true art and true science." - Albert Einstein
________
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Fri 16 Nov, 2007 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| Alex Oster wrote: |
If so, then I see what you mean, though i though the idea was to create a more open/triangular wound that would stay open and conduce free flow exsanguination. |
The 'flamberge' wave profile is thought to introuce air into the wound which woúld be very damaging. The 'kris' daggers where shaped like this to this effect.
There is a wide variety of african wavy blades in all lenghts and weights too.
If anything it is surprising that the design did not catch on more than it did in europe.
The wider profile of the colichemarde blade however was to honour the name 'forte'
This type of blade was developed when epees became civilian duelling blades in a time when heavier rapiers (and hangers) where still widely carried as sidearms too.
I guess the ts would 'idealy' opt for a flamberge smallsword. Now this probably never existed but flamberge transitional rapiers did and are produced as replicas too. There is a review of the Darkwood 'functional' version available on this forum.
It would obviously be relatively blade heavy but as a 'functional' thing there is no reason why this flamberge blade couldn't be matched form a smallsword if the ts so wished.
peter
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