[Kirk Lee Spencer]

I ran across a replica of a sword bayonet in an Atlanta Cutlery catalogue. I was tempted to buy one, but wanted to do some research. In the course of my research, I found an original sword bayonete that was $20 cheaper than the replica. It is a British pattern 1858 Enfield Sword Bayonet.

Overall length is 28 inches.
Blade Length 23 inches.
PoB is 3 inches from guard.
Weight is 1lb. 11oz.

If swords were attached to rifles in their declining days and then these sword bayonets became progressively shorter. Then swords may still be around in vestigial form as knife bayonets. Actually not truly vestigial as, in certain circumstances, they still perform the primary function of a sword.

It would be interesting to here your thoughts on this and if there may be other vestigial forms of swords still in use today?

[Gordon Frye]

Kirk;

The primary reason for the issue of sword bayonets was that with shorter rifles (such as the Baker, then the two-band Enfield Rifle Muskets, and finally with such "short rifles" as the SMLE and the US M1903, there was the perceived need for the "reach" of the shorter weapon to be the same as that of the full-length muskets or the rifles they replaced. In other words, the two-band Enfield when mounted with the sword-bayonet such as you purchased will have the same overall length as the Pattern 1853 musket with the triangular socket bayonet mounted on it. Likewise the SMLE with it's Pattern 1907 Bayonet was the same length as the "Long Lee" with bayonet, and the M1903 Rifle with it's bayonet was the same length as the Krag with bayonet.

BTW, in British regiments where they had been designated "Rifles", the commands are still "Fix Swords!"

Anyway, interesting sword-bayonet!

Cheers!

Gordon

[Dan P]

[Chris Goerner]

Kirk,

I have seen bayonets of this type before, and have always wondered why the blade is shaped as it is with the pronounced "dip". Do you know the reason? Did it make the bayonet more effective at parrying an opponent's thrust?

Chris

[Jonathan Hopkins]

This bayonet has a yataghan style blade, which is know for its "dip" or recurved blade. I do not know about the advantages it would give for use as a bayonet, but I would think that putting the balance further up the blade might aid in cutting. Several 19th century sword bayonets make use of the yataghan blade. Here are a few bayonets, one of which (a French M1842 sabre bayonet) has a yataghan blade:

Edited to add that I when I said I thought the yataghan design was suited to cutting, I was referring to a bayonet that is being used alone, not affixed to a rifle.

[Thomas Watt]

I've been thinking about this since the first query was posted.
My experience with bayonet training causes me to think of the bayonet as a substitute for a pike, rather than for a sword. I'm not saying that there weren't crossover weapons, just that based on how I was trained to use it, it is basically a pike weapon. During the heyday of bayonet charges, officers and senior non-commissioned officers carried and used swords rather than a rifle and bayonet.
Since I seem to recall a few other vets on being on here, so perhaps others will chime in...
or have I strayed seriously off the topic.?.

[Gordon Frye]

[Kirk Lee Spencer]

Great comments all around! Thanks guys

Gordon,
I never thought about the curve facilitating loading at the muzzle... Great point!

To my eye there is a certain beauty to the curve of falcata and yataghan. In hand, the yataghan curve really does feel like it would make a nasty slashing cut, sort of like a curved saber blade... not just in hand but at the end of rifle it also would be devastatating slashing as well as thrusting.

Jonathan,
Thanks for posting the pictures... excellent stuff.

I agree with Thomas about the bayonetted rifle as being more like a pike (attaching your sword to your rifle to make a spear). But that is the very thing that fascinates me about this particular moment in the history of arms. When my grandfather died he left me the well worn bolt action military rifle with a long bayonet he had used in the war. I can remember putting it all together and leaning it against the wall of my bedroom. I was mesmerized by its design and form. And when I would hold it in hand, it seemed to be conveying something that I could appreciate but not understand... not sure why it had such an effect on me. I think now that part of the equation was that in this object the long history of swords, spears and their nemesis, firearms, all came together in a beautiful nexus as one object.

Thanks again for the great comments...

ks

[Geoff Wood]

[Ed Toton]

[Jonathan Hopkins]

Ed,
I think that is a French bayonet for the Chassepot (sp) rifle. I am not sure since I don't have any sources with me at the moment. As far as a timeline of use, it fits between the French M1842 I have pictured, and the two just below it, which are French M1872 epee bayonets for the Gras rifle, so yours would probably be 1860s-ish(?).

Jonathan

PS--I'll try to get you some better info when I get home.

[Chad Arnow]

Here's an 1866 Chassepot sword bayonet.



It's an image I posted in this thread: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=6600

[Jonathan Hopkins]

[Thomas Watt]

[Jonathan Hopkins]

Here is a bit on yataghan bladed bayonets from Anthony Carter's World Bayonets 1800 to the Present:

"In France a revolutionary change in bayonet blade design was made which influenced the shape of bayonets throughout the world for the next fifty years. Their brass-hilted Model 1840 sabre bayonet had been introduced with a recurving blade based on the Indo-Persian yataghan, a weapon which had spread to Turkey and the Balkans. The yataghan blade provided a curved cutting edge and a thrusting point in line with the barrel. Initially this bayonet and its derivatives, the Models 1842 and 1842/59, were only issued to elite troops. Britain issued a copy of the M1842 with a ribbed brass hilt to the artillery in 1852, but by 1856 had adopted yataghan-bladed bayonets with steel hilts and chequered black grips. However, in 1866 the French decided to issue their new Chassepot rifleand M1866 sabre bayonet not just to elite troops but to all their infantry. Most of Europe followed with remarkable speed."

[Hugh Fuller]

Just a thought, but the dip might also be there to keep the baynet out of the way of your hand when working the ramrod in a muzzle loader. I am probably way off-base, but that is what first occurred to me when Isaw the question. As to their continuance into breechloading weapons, I would say that this was most likely the result of the well-known military conservatism.

[Jack W. Englund]