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Jack W. Englund
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 Posted: Mon 29 Oct, 2007 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | [peter |
I think I would make a distinction between reloading during a " hot " engagement/battle and reloading when it would be safe to do and when there is at least 5 to 10 minutes to do so.
The difference being, that if we assume that reloading during pauses in combat is a good idea, some extra ammunition to be able to reload once or twice might be part of one's on body or on horse equipment ? This is very different than ignoring an active enemy while trying to reload right in the middle of a fight. This dealing specifically with the question of carrying reloading components or not.
As mentioned earlier: Multiple pistols could take the place of some minimal reloading and offer better firepower than one pistol and more extra reloads.
Tactics versus logistics and finding the right balance between uselessly carrying too much extra ammo and not having any ?[/quote]
I agree!! I have been an "Tactical"or personal defense instructor for close to 40 yrs.(Military, LEO & civilian.) EXCLUDING Semi-autos,reloading a hand gun takes time,even with a "speed loader".  Loading a modern S&W 66 with loose ammo takes about 9 secs to load, (off a bench) In a STRESS situation". (when the "pucker factor" is in play) it becomes even harder to load ( not to mention dropping ammo  ) The RULE is -"a back up gun is the fastest reload."
As to cap & ball revolvers - you are talking about min.s
Historically - The Scots carried a pistol. they fired it, threw it away & drew their Basket hilts. (if they survived, they retrieved it.) This seems to be more the norm IMHO when using a Muzzle loader.in combat.
Note- I shoot Flint lock pistols @ least 2xs per mo., Even loading @ the line, I need both hands & a lot of focus.In combat,FORGET IT  At the very least, I would be like the Dragoon,in a pic i recently saw, 2 pistols in saddle holsters & s clipped to his cross belt, + a BIG SABER.
Jack Englund
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Lin Robinson
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| Posted: Mon 29 Oct, 2007 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Jack W. Englund wrote: |
Historically - The Scots carried a pistol. they fired it, threw it away & drew their Basket hilts. (if they survived, they retrieved it.) This seems to be more the norm IMHO when using a Muzzle loader.in combat.
Jack Englund |
Jack...
I have to strongly disagree with your statement about Scots (Highlanders) discarding their pistols after firing them during the Highland Charge. In fact, and based on contemporary eyewitness accounts, when they reached musket shot range they halted, fired their long arms, then threw them aside, drew broadswords and continued on toward the enemy. There are no accounts that I have seen stating that they fired their pistols as part of the charge then threw them down. The pistol, while it can be an offensive weapon, is primarily defensive. Retaining the pistol for use as a defensive weapon, should their one and only tactic - the Highland Charge - fail, makes a lot more sense than firing it then throwing it away. This is not to mention that tossing the pistol for any distance would probably result in the loss of the flint at minimum and possibly more major damage. Finding it during the fighting would be most difficult and not much easier afterward, if the field was littered with bodies and equipment. There have been some modern works that state that the Highlanders threw their empty pistols AT the enemy, but I have never run across that in a contemporary piece.
I might throw my expensive (empty) Doune pistol at a charging dragoon as a last resort, but that is exacly what it would be.
Alba Gu Brath
Lin Robinson
"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Jack W. Englund
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| Posted: Mon 29 Oct, 2007 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Lin Robinson wrote: | | Jack W. Englund wrote: |
Historically - The Scots carried a pistol. they fired it, threw it away & drew their Basket hilts. (if they survived, they retrieved it.) This seems to be more the norm IMHO when using a Muzzle loader.in combat.
Jack Englund |
Jack...
I have to strongly disagree with your statement about Scots (Highlanders) discarding their pistols after firing them during the Highland Charge. In fact, and based on contemporary eyewitness accounts, when they reached musket shot range they halted, fired their long arms, then threw them aside, drew broadswords and continued on toward the enemy. There are no accounts that I have seen stating that they fired their pistols as part of the charge then threw them down. The pistol, while it can be an offensive weapon, is primarily defensive. Retaining the pistol for use as a defensive weapon, should their one and only tactic - the Highland Charge - fail, makes a lot more sense than firing it then throwing it away. This is not to mention that tossing the pistol for any distance would probably result in the loss of the flint at minimum and possibly more major damage. Finding it during the fighting would be most difficult and not much easier afterward, if the field was littered with bodies and equipment. There have been some modern works that state that the Highlanders threw their empty pistols AT the enemy, but I have never run across that in a contemporary piece.
I might throw my expensive (empty) Doune pistol at a charging dragoon as a last resort, but that is exacly what it would be.
Alba Gu Brath |
Lin, I appreciate your imput.At the present I can only refer to references that you refeer to as "modern works" & the few I just checked refer not throwing "their empty pistols AT the enemy"BUT simply after discharging them, discarding them, much in the same manner as you cited them doing with their muskets. IMHO, it makes sense in that once the pistol is fired, unless you use it as a CLUB, then discarding it would be the best option. Remember the smooth bore pistol that they used, was a CLOSE range weopon.10-15 yd.s at most ( yes it can hit a man sized target farther out, but remember musket range was "normally 50-75 yd.s). A man can cover 10-15yds in seconds. To try & re-clip a pistol, would mean that he was in bayonet range with nothing more than a short club.. Better to drop it & draw my sword. As to expense. Even if I had a Doune ( most likely I would only have a plain steel version, perhaps a W. Criste etc.) BUT no matter how expensive the empty gun was, my life is worth more..In the heat of battle, servival is paramount.
Jack
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| Lin Robinson wrote: | | Your comments about the battle of Krojanty are interesting. I assume, as I have no knowledge of what went on, the the cavalry attacked a column of infantry which was not supported by armor or air, |
Hmm. Well, at least in one case Polish cavalrymen were actually operating in the Germans' rear area--the German armored spearhead has passed, and these cavalrymen spotted a column of unsupported infantry trying to catch up many miles behind the then-current front line. This page gives a fairly good account of the charge itself:
http://old.polishnews.com/fulltext/history/2001/history4.shtml
but, properly speaking, it describes a different cavalry charge that happened eight days after the battle of Krojanty itself. At Krojanty, the Polish cavalry attacked some German infantry resting at the edges of the wood, apparently unsupported by other elements. Their initial estimate turned out to be wrong, though, when some German armored cars roared out of hiding and machinegunned the Poles, inflicting heavy casualties upon them--though not before they had dealt similarly heavy casualties to the surprised infantrymen. The battle is mostly interesting for the way Axis journalists turned it into the myth of Polish cavalrymen launching futile charges against German tanks (which never happened at all). I guess you might look at the Wikipedia article ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Krojanty ) for more information on it.
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Lin Robinson
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| Posted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 6:26 am Post subject: |
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| Jack W. Englund wrote: | | Lin, I appreciate your imput.At the present I can only refer to references that you refeer to as "modern works" & the few I just checked refer not throwing "their empty pistols AT the enemy"BUT simply after discharging them, discarding them, much in the same manner as you cited them doing with their muskets. IMHO, it makes sense in that once the pistol is fired, unless you use it as a CLUB, then discarding it would be the best option. Remember the smooth bore pistol that they used, was a CLOSE range weopon.10-15 yd.s at most ( yes it can hit a man sized target farther out, but remember musket range was "normally 50-75 yd.s). A man can cover 10-15yds in seconds. To try & re-clip a pistol, would mean that he was in bayonet range with nothing more than a short club.. Better to drop it & draw my sword. As to expense. Even if I had a Doune ( most likely I would only have a plain steel version, perhaps a W. Criste etc.) BUT no matter how expensive the empty gun was, my life is worth more..In the heat of battle, servival is paramount.Jack |
Jack...
I am intimately familiar with the shortcomings of smoothbore muskets and pistols, especially of the Highland variety. My point, which I may not have expressed very well, was that pistols were not fired during the Highland Charge. Instead they were retained, loaded, should the charge go badly and the warrior have to make a fighting retreat. While there are no contemporary references of the pistol being fired during the charge that I can find, I have found numerous statements supporting the idea that the Highlander did use his pistol(s) defensively. The Scottish Pistol by Martin Kelvin, the seminal work on these firearms, contains 101 anecdotes taken from contemporary or near contemporary works, dating from 1578 to 1746 regarding the presence and use of pistols in Scotland in many different scenarios. Only a couple mention discarded pistols and those seem to be pistols (and many other weapons) thrown away by retreating Highlanders. To me it makes more sense to retain one or a brace of pistols to use for self-defense than firing what is certainly an relatively inaccurate firearm during an attack.
The one modern piece I have seen stating that the pistol was fired during the Highland Charge was in an issue of Muzzleloader Magazine about 25 years ago. I would be interested in knowing what references you have on this subject.
I will also draw your attention to some much earlier Scottish pistols. At least one snaphaunce pistol has been found that sported a flanged mace attached to the barrel. The "heart butt" stock design, while it may not have been intended to be used as such, made a pretty good bludgeon. While the all-metal pistols were probably not made with the idea of their utility as bludgeons, it is quite possible to use them in this manner, making another argument for not throwing away the pistol.
Lin Robinson
"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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Anyway.... throwaway pistols or not, they did not fiffle wit a powder flask to reload or utensils to clean the barrel on horseback.
A lance or a long gun, any number up to a handfull of pistols, some prepaired recharges just in case, packed together with a panprimer and ofcourse ... a tool for personal defense p.e. sword or long knife.
The cavalerists equipment may have contained a complete 'gun set' , he sure did not carry it with him.
peter
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Lin Robinson
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| Posted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Peter Bosman wrote: | Anyway.... throwaway pistols or not, they did not fiffle wit a powder flask to reload or utensils to clean the barrel on horseback.
A lance or a long gun, any number up to a handfull of pistols, some prepaired recharges just in case, packed together with a panprimer and ofcourse ... a tool for personal defense p.e. sword or long knife.
The cavalerists equipment may have contained a complete 'gun set' , he sure did not carry it with him.
peter |
Highlanders, with a very few exceptions, were infantry soldiers. They did carry powder horns, and paper cartridges or loose bullets in their sporrans, so reloading was a possibility. However, since most engagements were short, sharp affairs, the need to reload was limited.
Lin Robinson
"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Fri 02 Nov, 2007 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Lin Robinson wrote: | | Highlanders, with a very few exceptions, were infantry soldiers. |
Thus outside of mý 'field'.
However as in your expert view on them even theý would have limited opportunity/need for reloading fresh from the powder flask or the cleaning utensils this confirms my present view on cavalry (or a gentleman travelling on horseback).
Thanks.
peter
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