[Dawit Koho]

Some buttons on normal wear is here. http://iluminace.viaboemia.com/o45.htm (buttons on tunics macievski are the two last.(

http://iluminace.viaboemia.com/o58.htm (buttons on overcoats(

[T. Johannesson]

spotted the person in the lower right: Is he wearing his panzer OVER his mail? An artist that misunderstood or did they do that?

[Elling Polden]

Yes, they did.
Most commonly this was done by cavalry, (though it is seldom depicted. Maybe its breaks with the stereotype image of the knight.) or by other people that would get shot at a lot, and not move to much, like besiegers. (as shown)

Adding to much padding under the mail will reduce mobility. However, adding a short sleeved or sleeveless outer gambeson will be less in the way.

[T. Johannesson]

Sounds like a good move. ^^
But do they skip an inner layer of protection under the mail or do the have 2 layers of panzer? If so, how thick are the each of the layers?

[Elling Polden]

They keep the inner layer.

From the Kingsmirror, norwegian ca 1250;
"The rider himself should be equipped in this wise: he should wear good soft breeches made of soft and thoroughly blackened linen cloth, which should reach up to the belt; outside these, good mail hose which should come up high enough to be girded on with a double strap; over these he must have good trousers made of linen cloth of the sort that I have already described; finally, over these he should have good knee-pieces madeof thick iron and rivets hard as steel. Above and next to the body he should Wear a soft gambison, which need not come lower than to the middle of, the thigh. Over this he must have a strong breastplate made of good iron covering the body from the nipples to the trousers belt; outside this, a well-made hauberk and over the hauberk a firm gambison made in the manner which I have already described but without sleeves. He must have a dirk § and two swords, one girded on and another hanging from the pommel of the saddle. On his head he must have a dependable helmet made of good steel and provided with a visor. He must also have a strong, thick shield fastened to a durable shoulder belt and, in addition, a good sharp spear with a firm shaft and pointed with fine steel. Now it seems needless to speak further about the equipment of men who fight on horseback; there are, however, other weapons which a mounted warrior may use, if he wishes; among these are the "horn bow" and the weaker crossbow, which a man can easily draw even when on horseback, and certain other weapons, too, if he should want them."

On a scandinavian note, the inner padding is called a "Våpentrøye" , while the independent or outer armour is "panzar". In some of the law text one speaks of "våpentrøye AND panzar or mail", indicating that one could possibly use the sleeveless panzer over the long sleeved våpentrøye, as previously mentioned

[Brian Boll]

Does anybody have a good idea of why there are so many bronze-hilted swords depicted in the Maciejowski Bible ? There are some instances of silver-hued ones, but they seem rather rarer than the bronze. Was bronze really so prevalent during this time period ?

[Luka Borscak]

[quote="Elling Polden"]They keep the inner layer.

...Over this he must have a strong breastplate made of good iron covering the body from the nipples to the trousers belt...

What would such breastplate look like? Would it be one solid plate for the front part of the body, or coat of plates, or what?

[Elling Polden]

[quote="Luka Borscak"]

[David A. Counts]

I just sold this book, so I can't scan the photo in question, but ...

Maurizio Mauro’s ARMERIA DELLA ROCCA MOSTRA DI ARMI ANTICHE … 1989 … 140 pgs … b/w illus… TEXT in ITALIAN … great trivia … have you been fascinated by those “chopper” type weapons that appear in the 13th C. Maciejowski Bible … this catalogue has a surviving 18th C. weapon that is almost identical - down to the "umbrella" like grip/handle …( oh yeah, the choppers do show up in other 13th c. manuscript illustrations also where they are clearly differentiated from falchions). I would be curious about what folks think of the 14th C. "choppers" that show up in "The Romance of Alexander" ... comparable to the Maciejowski Bible as a visual treasure house of arms and armour ... visored great helms, coats of plates with plates on the outside as well as inside, some really wild chopper style weaponry, etc.

David ... who is no longer researching armour but who once had this same fascination and could not resist a reply.

[Sean Smith]

The "chest protector" could be the leather curie mentioned in the Assise of Arms at the end of the 12th century. Or something along the lines of the armoured surcoat of St. Maurice. I would be hesitant to call it a full breastplate this early on.

[Elling Polden]

Well, it SAYS it's supposed to be made out of good iron, and Coats of Plate are known from the period, so I assume that is what they mean.