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Randall Pleasant
Location: Flower Mound, Texas Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Posts: 333
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 Posted: Wed 06 Feb, 2008 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| Stephen Hand wrote: | | Randall Pleasant wrote: | | Keep in mind that a large majority of the people studying Renaissance and Medieval martial arts as an actual martial art are currently students of John Clements |
Umm no, not even close. There are at least 100 non- ARMA groups around the world. |
Hello Stephen
My apologies for not being clearer in my message. Actually I think we are on the same page but just looking at the numbers in a different manner. I too figured there is approximately 100 WMA groups around the world. However, by using the phrase “Renaissance and Medieval” and the phrase “as an actual martial art” I exclude many of these groups from my calculations.
When we exclude (1) the groups who study post-Renaissance arts, ie. short sword, classical fensing, etc. and (2) the groups who’s primary focus is stage-fighting, role-playing, re-enactment, etc., rather than actual combat martial arts then I figure we are talking about approximately 50 groups world wide. I would guess that on average those 50 groups have about 10 to 15 full-time members who are at different skill levels. Please note that I am also excluding people who just take a class or two. So if we assume 15 full-time members per group, to be on the safe side, then we are talking about approximately 750 people. Add in ARMA’s approximately 500 members and we get a total of approximately 1250 people. Thus, it is my guess that ARMA members represents approximately 40 percent of the people in the world who are actually studying Renaissance and Medieval martial arts as an actual martial arts. So “large majority” was a poor choice of words in my previous message, I should have said something like “a large percentage”.
Again, sorry for the mis-communications.
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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Gary A. Chelette
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| Posted: Wed 06 Feb, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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Randall,
40%??
The SCA has now 19 Kingdoms that spans not only the US and Canada, but also Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea, and a couple of US war ships! The SCA has over 32,000 members (approx) and started in 1966.
May I ask why you feel that 40% is an acurate number?
http://www.sca.org/sca-intro.html
Just asking.
| Quote: | "and the phrase “as an actual martial art” I exclude many of these groups from my calculations."
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Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
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Randall Pleasant
Location: Flower Mound, Texas Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Wed 06 Feb, 2008 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Gary A. Chelette wrote: | Randall,
40%??
The SCA has now 19 Kingdoms that spans not only the US and Canada, but also Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea, and a couple of US war ships! The SCA has over 32,000 members (approx) and started in 1966.
May I ask why you feel that 40% is an acurate number?
http://www.sca.org/sca-intro.html
Just asking.
| Quote: | "and the phrase “as an actual martial art” I exclude many of these groups from my calculations."
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Gary
Sorry about any confusion. I was well aware of the size of the SCA. However, the SCA was excluded from my calculations because their primary focus is re-enactment & role playing (titles, kingdoms, etc.) and their fighting is not historical. Although a number of individuals from the SCA are involved in the recreation of historical European martial arts the SCA itself is not. I was only considering those organizations who's only focus is the recreation of historical European martial arts.
Again, sorry about any confusion.
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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Gary A. Chelette
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| Posted: Wed 06 Feb, 2008 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Randall Pleasant wrote: | | Gary A. Chelette wrote: | Randall,
40%??
The SCA has now 19 Kingdoms that spans not only the US and Canada, but also Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea, and a couple of US war ships! The SCA has over 32,000 members (approx) and started in 1966.
May I ask why you feel that 40% is an acurate number?
http://www.sca.org/sca-intro.html
Just asking.
| Quote: | "and the phrase “as an actual martial art” I exclude many of these groups from my calculations."
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Gary
Sorry about any confusion. I was well aware of the size of the SCA. However, the SCA was excluded from my calculations because their primary focus is re-enactment & role playing (titles, kingdoms, etc.) and their fighting is not historical. Although a number of individuals from the SCA are involved in the recreation of historical European martial arts the SCA itself is not. I was only considering those organizations who's only focus is the recreation of historical European martial arts.
Again, sorry about any confusion.
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW |
Understood.
Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
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Stephen Hand
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| Posted: Wed 06 Feb, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Randall Pleasant wrote: | | When we exclude (1) the groups who study post-Renaissance arts, ie. short sword, classical fensing, etc. and (2) the groups who’s primary focus is stage-fighting, role-playing, re-enactment, etc., rather than actual combat martial arts then I figure we are talking about approximately 50 groups world wide. |
I was excluding these groups too. If I had included re-enactment groups then we would be talking in the thousands for the number of groups. And 15 members per group is a very small number. In Australia we have around 320 practitioners in the nine groups comprising the Australian Historical Swordplay Federation.
Considering that there are 15 groups in the British Federation and that doesn't include all the groups in England, and that there were 52 non-ARMA groups in the US and Canada who have thus far been bothered to list themselves in WMA Illustrated magazine and we're up to 76 groups before we've even started to look at continental Europe, where there are at least 20-30 groups. I think that 100 groups is a very conservative number.
And some people who are members of re-enactment groups DO train very seriously in the medieval and renaissance martial arts.
Overall, there are a very large number of people training in the medieval and renaissance martial arts AS martial arts. Not as many as I would like, but still a large number.
Stephen Hand
Editor, Spada, Spada II
Author of English Swordsmanship, Medieval Sword and Shield
Stoccata School of Defence
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Randall Pleasant
Location: Flower Mound, Texas Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Wed 06 Feb, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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Well Stephen, I guess each to his own calculation. You think my estimate is way under and I think your estimate is way over. I am aware of the WMA Illustrated magazine list, actually we entered our study group when they were doing the survey. As I noted in my post, I didn't consider people who just take a class or two, nor hanger-on types who show up every other month. Some people give very accurate membership numbers  and others like to inflate the numbers of their membership.  In any case, it's not that big of a deal is it? Besides, this is way off topic. 
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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Allen Reed
Location: Northwest, IL Joined: 19 Apr 2004
Posts: 78
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| Posted: Thu 07 Feb, 2008 1:01 pm Post subject: SCA in Canada |
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| Gary A. Chelette wrote: | | Randall Pleasant wrote: |
Gary
This is not a "Who's better" thread. This thread was started by someone looking for information. While the SCA is not the thing for many on this forum, it may well be for the individual who started this thread. So please do post the name of the group and any contact information that you might have.
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW |
Thank you ,Sir:
Starleaf Gate (Shire)
Ragnar Drakkarson (John McKee)
439 Bertha St
Windsor, ONT N8P1B6
519-945-6227 cmckee@cogeco.ca
This is in the Midrealm and covers US and Canada. I do not know John McKee, but he is listed as a contact in Canada.
As I have said before, the SCA has members that are also Members in other groups in the WMA.
Good luck. |
Starleaf Gate would be a good place to start if you are near Windsor but there are other SCA groups in Ontario including several near Toronto.
Click over to www.sca.org and look up the Kingodm of AEthelmearc (this is most of Ontario and points west).
Allen
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Allen Reed
Location: Northwest, IL Joined: 19 Apr 2004
Posts: 78
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| Posted: Thu 07 Feb, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: SCA in Canada |
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| Allen wrote: |
Starleaf Gate would be a good place to start if you are near Windsor but there are other SCA groups in Ontario including several near Toronto.
Click over to www.sca.org and look up the Kingodm of AEthelmearc (this is most of Ontario and points west).
Allen |
Shoot, trying to think and type at the same time again.
I meant click on Kingodm of Ealdormere for Ontario, Canada.
Allen
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Mon 18 Feb, 2008 1:55 am Post subject: |
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I fence rapier in the SCA. Given how cheap it is an how spread out they are across the US, Canada and Europe I think it is an excellent place for someone to start training rapier.
You might say that they are not historically accurate in that they don't allow you punch someone in the face or kick them in the groin, but you can learn good basic foot work and blade work. These are the things that make a good fencer, not some cheap tricks. SCA rapier first works on basic footwork in a non-liner manor. Good balance and movement is the most important thing. Then they will teach you to keep the point in line and move the hilt to parry. You will learn point-control. They will teach you to attack in a defensive manor so that the other point is either off-line when you attack or safely in your quillons. At the intermediate level they will teach you to fight with dagger, buckler, cane. At the more advanced level you will learn to fight cloak and case.
SCA rapier is limited to thrusts, tip cuts, and slices. The whole body is a target area. They don't allow for percussive strikes with the edge or grappling. Given that rapier are not that good at hacking I don't think that is a great loss. If you feel the need to hack, they do have a separate Cut & Thrust program that includes percussive cuts in a controlled manor. That program includes, cut & thrust swords, broadswords and longswords.
The practice quality varies from area to area. Some places have more beginners and spend more time on the basics. Other places may have more advanced people. Most major cities have a number of practices and you have decide which practice is best for you. You may train with a number of people but a beginner needs to establish a relationship with one person who can guide there overall training. The advantage of the SCA is the large pool of people. You will always find someone better then you who can teach you something new.
You will find people from all sort of fencing back grounds. Some learned rapier within the SCA, other come from a classical fencing back ground, other have studied manual such as Ferro, Agrippa and Di Grasse. Some are or have been ARMA students or some other historic fighting group. Likewise SCA rapier fencers also fence in other organizations. You can't say this organization or that one is better or worse. You can learn something from them all if you have the ability to get around.
I generally tell new people to go to whatever practice is closest. Latter on they can shop around.
Side note: Regarding SCA membership numbers. Last I heard membership hovers around 45,000 but participation is about 140,000. You don't need to be an SCA member to attend any practice or tournament. All the membership does is get you a $3 discount at events and you get to vote on certain things. Memberships expires annually and must be renewed. I myself was late in renewing and let it lapse for 4 months. No big deal, I still went to practices and paid the extra $3 at tournaments. Most people don't bother or care about membership. They just participate as non-members.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Gary A. Chelette
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| Posted: Tue 19 Feb, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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That is correct Vassilis.
Also, some kingdoms also have "Heavy Rapier" or "Schlager" blade fencing to get a more realistic weight and feel of a standard rapier.
The schlager blade was originally seized upon as an SCA rapier simulator because it was the only commercially available blade that approached the form and function of a period rapier.
Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
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