Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Helmet Help Needed Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next 
Author Message
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,935

PostPosted: Thu 20 Sep, 2007 7:30 am    Post subject: Helmet Help Needed         Reply with quote

I'm in the process of lining and strapping this Italian sallet and bevor. Since this is my first armour work I'd like to get some advice on a few points.

The black line around the bowl of the sallet is my guide for placing the rivets for the lining band (7 rivets on each side, plus a lower set of two rivets per side for the chin strap). Does the angle of the line appear to be historically plausible? I've looked at every original and reproduction sallet I can find but can't say for sure. There seems to be an enormous amount of variation, but I think I'm o.k. What do y'all think?

The blob of white clay in the center rivet position here represents the head size of my domed steel rivets. Again, I've seen great variety in rivet size but I'd like your opinions. Is this size within spec, historically?

I have a few photos of lined bevors, but none that show a bevor exactly like mine (though I have seen originals of this form). The lower end of the liner should be secured by rivets at the base of the bevor's throat. That area is somewhat obscured by the lower plate of my bevor. Can anybody here show or say how the lower end of the lining should be attached in this case? (and, by the way, is the name of this piece correctly pronounced (in English) to suggest that one has a semi-aquatic mammal strapped to one's face ("BEE-vur")?

Finally, I've already done a bit of work to make this sallet more historically accurate than it was when I acquired it (removing an ahistorical visor and patching the resulting holes). It's two-piece, welded construction with a turned under lower edge, so not perfectly historical although it's looking better and better. So I'm debating whether or not to use modern round washers under the rivet peen on the lining band or make more historically appropriate square or octagonal rivets from thin steel (a relatively simple project but never to be seen.). I'm wondering if the washer choice would be a deal-breaker for living history types if I ever want to sell the piece. I'd hate to wreck the value of the piece just to avoid a couple of hours of labor. What would you do?

Thanks for any tips!



 Attachment: 56.03 KB
sallet.JPG


 Attachment: 36.11 KB
download.jpeg


-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)


Last edited by Sean Flynt on Thu 20 Sep, 2007 8:04 am; edited 6 times in total
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,935

PostPosted: Thu 20 Sep, 2007 7:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's my primary example for lining my bevor (by the same fellow who made mine--Patrick Thaden). I understand how to do everything but the lower rivets since the lower part of my bevor is different. I could just put my lower rivets wherever they'll fit but I do want to hew as close as possible to the historical line. If anybody spots problems with the lining of the one shown here, that would be good to know, too.


 Attachment: 24.76 KB
bevor_down_190.jpg


 Attachment: 35.62 KB
bevor_inside_152.jpg


 Attachment: 20.87 KB
bevor_up_100.jpg


-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Nathan Keysor




Location: WV
Joined: 15 Apr 2007
Reading list: 9 books

Posts: 255

PostPosted: Thu 20 Sep, 2007 7:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean,

I think your rivet positions look good. I've always pronounced it "bev-or" but I could be off base with that. This 15th armour with a barbuta has a similar rivet line so I woudn't think it would change for a sallet etc...



 Attachment: 46.48 KB
pic_feature_mil_gothic.gif


"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.
Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
View user's profile Send private message
Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional



Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 18 Oct 2003

Posts: 1,563

PostPosted: Thu 20 Sep, 2007 8:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean, on the lower set of rivets for the bevor, you can flush rivet them so that they won't interefer with the little bit of downward play I suspect that the middle plate has in the base plate. You can use steel dome head or tinners rivets. Installing would be easier if you can clip the two rivets that join the base plate and the middle plate so that the upper assembley is free from the base. Mark and drill your holes in thier desired locations, than using a bigger bit drill ( keep the drill running slow so you have control over the depth) from the outside counter sink the holes like you would to accept a wood screw in woodworking. When you run your rivets through for piening, ( the rivet head should be on the inside with the shank protruding out the front) clip them as very close to the surface of the bevor, 'bout as close as you can get, then pien gently with a lighter hammer. The rivet shank will spread out into the counter sink allowing the surface of the plate to stay smooth, thus allowing firm afixing of the leather without interfering with plates moving. Most all of the Rhodes bevors made as articulating assembleys seem to have been done this way. After installation you can rejoin the base plate w/ the upper assembley.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,935

PostPosted: Thu 20 Sep, 2007 8:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan Senefelder wrote:
Sean, on the lower set of rivets for the bevor, you can flush rivet them so that they won't interefer with the little bit of downward play I suspect that the middle plate has in the base plate. You can use steel dome head or tinners rivets. Installing would be easier if you can clip the two rivets that join the base plate and the middle plate so that the upper assembley is free from the base. Mark and drill your holes in thier desired locations, than using a bigger bit drill ( keep the drill running slow so you have control over the depth) from the outside counter sink the holes like you would to accept a wood screw in woodworking. When you run your rivets through for piening, ( the rivet head should be on the inside with the shank protruding out the front) clip them as very close to the surface of the bevor, 'bout as close as you can get, then pien gently with a lighter hammer. The rivet shank will spread out into the counter sink allowing the surface of the plate to stay smooth, thus allowing firm afixing of the leather without interfering with plates moving. Most all of the Rhodes bevors made as articulating assembleys seem to have been done this way. After installation you can rejoin the base plate w/ the upper assembley.


Excellent suggestion! This is actually the same method I used to close the holes left by removal of the visor and its spring pin. I don't know why it didn't occur to me to simply temporarily remove the lower bevor plate and do exactly as you suggest. It's especially good to know that this method appears to have been used historically. Perfect. Many thanks, Allan!

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)


Last edited by Sean Flynt on Thu 20 Sep, 2007 8:12 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,245

PostPosted: Thu 20 Sep, 2007 8:11 am    Post subject: Re: Helmet Help Needed         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
Can anybody here show or say how this type of bevor was lined historically? (and, by the way, is the name of this piece correctly pronounced (in English) to suggest that one has a semi-aquatic mammal strapped to one's face ("BEE-vur")?

Thanks for any tips!


Don't know for sure about what the " English " in period pronunciation would have been or is currently as they may in period have " butchered ", one might say, the French pronunciation of some or all " French " words borrowed/stolen from French. Razz Laughing Out Loud

In French I would spell it and pronounce it Bévor ( accent aigue ): That could sound like B - Vor ( But you have to pronounce B with the French sound where B and Bé would both sound exactly the same the é only making a difference with written French ).

Maybe sounding like BAY-Vor but Bay being softer that the hard English Bay ? Really hard to give an English equivalent to the sound and I don't know the " conventions " used by linguists to write down pronunciation information.

But it doesn't sound like BEE-Vor in French. I guess a phone call could solve that problem !?

Oh, the meaning of Bevor is derived from " Baver " ( the R is silent so it sounds like bavé ).
Baver mean to drool ! So basically a very colourful way of saying " A drool catcher " and not something related to the wood chomping dam building rodent ( That is the Canadian National animal:
Early fur trade and industriousness I guess Eek! Laughing Out Loud )

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional



Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 18 Oct 2003

Posts: 1,563

PostPosted: Thu 20 Sep, 2007 8:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No sweat, if you need some tinners rivets let me know.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,935

PostPosted: Thu 20 Sep, 2007 8:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan Senefelder wrote:
No sweat, if you need some tinners rivets let me know.


I bought the minimum order of 5/32" shank rivets from R.J. Leahy--600! I need approximately 34 for the entire project, so I should have a few spares if I screw up and have to start over...17 times. Laughing Out Loud

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional



Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 18 Oct 2003

Posts: 1,563

PostPosted: Thu 20 Sep, 2007 8:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Oh, the meaning of Bevor is derived from " Baver " ( the R is silent so it sounds like bavé ).
Baver mean to drool ! So basically a very colourful way of saying " A drool catcher "



I've heard that before, I figured based on my expirience wearing them that this is a reference to how "great" the ventilation is while you have one of these on.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional



Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 18 Oct 2003

Posts: 1,563

PostPosted: Thu 20 Sep, 2007 8:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
I bought the minimum order of 5/32" shank rivets from R.J. Leahy--600! I need approximately 34 for the entire project, so I should have a few spares if I screw up and have to start over...17 times.


Yeah they sure do fit alot into that little container ( we get ours from McMaster/Carr, they come 600 in this little ziplock bag). You can't really get them in small project quantities. If you keep expirementing with armour you'll find uses for them. We use them just about everyplace leather is used to achieve aritculation but the plates need to sit tight against each other ( lower pauldron lames and the like).
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,245

PostPosted: Thu 20 Sep, 2007 9:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan Senefelder wrote:
Quote:
Oh, the meaning of Bevor is derived from " Baver " ( the R is silent so it sounds like bavé ).
Baver mean to drool ! So basically a very colourful way of saying " A drool catcher "



I've heard that before, I figured based on my expirience wearing them that this is a reference to how "great" the ventilation is while you have one of these on.


In cold weather I would think condensation might contribute to the " drool " or in fact be mostly condensation with a bit of drool and a little added sweat ? In any case moisture from one's breath. Laughing Out Loud

Linings would tend to get soaked I would think and easy replacement or cleaning might be a good thing ?

I don't think, but am not sure, that the lining in a bevor is padding to protect from impact and blunt trauma so it might be thin and light and would dry fairly quickly. Maybe just there to keep most of the moisture from the inside steel surface ?

Hot breath hitting cold metal will turn to water but a cloth barrier might just deflect the vapour without it condensating into liquid and less water/drool would accumulate !? It all sounds rather gross or at least uncomfortable and unpleasant: Maybe why the bevor might not be worn at times or at least a hinged bevor would be used to minimize the claustrophobia and maximize ease of breathing.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,935

PostPosted: Thu 20 Sep, 2007 9:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan Senefelder wrote:
If you keep expirementing with armour you'll find uses for them.


I knew I was in trouble when I looked at a box of 600 rivets and thought, "Well, I'm sure I can use those in some way." Next thing you know, I'm thinking I need a bigger anvil (with stakes, naturally) and telling myself that buying sheet steel is much cheaper than buying a finished blade and having hilt furniture custom-cast.

Eek!

Actually, I had an idea to use a notebook-size plate as the ground for a "sampler" of various armouring techniques--sliding rivets, lame construction, articulation, mail, etc. That way I could go ahead and try small bites of lots of different things without having to create a full project or worry about screwing up too badly. Having everything on a single plate would make a handy workshop reference.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional



Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 18 Oct 2003

Posts: 1,563

PostPosted: Thu 20 Sep, 2007 10:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Slot rivetting is easy as long as your holes are located properly. Just drill a second hole the desired distance away from the first to create the length of slot you want, using a sharpened chisel cut on either side of the desired channel so that it joins the holes forming the slot ( two circles become a long pill shaped oval) and then a little elbow grease and a file to smooth the chieled edges out.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Michal Plezia
Industry Professional



Location: Poland
Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Likes: 2 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 585

PostPosted: Thu 20 Sep, 2007 10:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I like this sallet..who made it?
www.elchon.com

Polish Guild of Knifemakers

The sword is a weapon for killing, the art of the sword is the art of killing. No matter what fancy words you use or what titles you put to
it that is the only truth.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Olivier L-Beaulieu




Location: Québec, Canada
Joined: 27 Jan 2007

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Thu 20 Sep, 2007 11:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean

I would go for the hand-made washers because, in my opinion, it is beautiful. The modern washers looks like... modern... When I make washers, I heat them to "fake" heat treatment. Also, I try to hammer the washer.

I think your rivet line is well placed. It allows you to install a liner.

By the way, this sallet is very well made!
View user's profile Send private message
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,935

PostPosted: Thu 20 Sep, 2007 12:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michal Plezia wrote:
I like this sallet..who made it?


This is an older Patrick Thaden piece (not representative of his current work). I acquired this in trade from our own Bill Grandy. Here's his description and "before" photos:
http://www.myArmoury.com/bill_othr_thad_sallet.html?9

I originally thought I would modify the visor but liked the plain bowl so well that I didn't see any point. I'd like it slightly better if the entire rim were turned, but no matter. It's a classic Italian celata of the late 15th c. and would also look wonderful with the full "Venetian" treatment--velvet covering and gilt copper appliques.

Thaden might not claim the piece these days (especially the visor) but I think the bowl is very elegantly shaped and the bevor is a good match, with clean lines and a crisp falling lame mechanism. This particular form was in use long after the 15th c. As I understand it, the celata ala Vennezianna (sp?) was used as a parade helmet into the 18th c.

These things are all over contemporary artwork, including (looks to me) on St. Francis in Giorgione's famous Castelfranco Altarpiece of ca. 1503.



 Attachment: 61.76 KB
430px-Castelfranco_Madonna.jpg


-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,935

PostPosted: Thu 20 Sep, 2007 12:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Olivier L-Beaulieu wrote:
Sean

I would go for the hand-made washers because, in my opinion, it is beautiful. The modern washers looks like... modern... When I make washers, I heat them to "fake" heat treatment. Also, I try to hammer the washer.

I think your rivet line is well placed. It allows you to install a liner.

By the way, this sallet is very well made!



I'm leaning that way, too. How do you make yours? I planned to mark the square washer blanks along the edge of a large sheet of thin steel, then drill them, then cut them out with shears, trim the corners and pop each with a hammer to flatten the areas turned up by the shears.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jean-Carle Hudon




Location: Montreal,Canada
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Likes: 4 pages

Posts: 450

PostPosted: Thu 20 Sep, 2007 2:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Aquatic mammal, we really could have had fun with that one... the original french term is bavière, from which the anglo-normans, who continued using french but with their own accents and evolution until the XVth century, derived bevor ( bev-or), I guess we'll have to look to other ways of attaching bee-vors... oh never mind....
Bon coeur et bon bras
View user's profile Send private message
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,935

PostPosted: Fri 21 Sep, 2007 9:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I just found these!


 Attachment: 80.45 KB
Image23.jpg


 Attachment: 97.44 KB
Image21.jpg


 Attachment: 106.31 KB
Image22.jpg


-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional



Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 18 Oct 2003

Posts: 1,563

PostPosted: Fri 21 Sep, 2007 10:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean if you're going to make your washers you can make square, hex ( on the hexagonal ones in our collection you it looks like they started with a square and then nipped the corners off so you have four long and four short sides) or filed round. We have examples of all these in our collection.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Helmet Help Needed
Page 1 of 3 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2020 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum