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Drew C.
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 Posted: Wed 19 Sep, 2007 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| Sam Barris wrote: | Drew,
My sport weapon is epee, and from everything I've been led to believe, a smallsword handles much like a shorter, more rigid epee.
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That's actually kind of what I was hoping to hear, have you personally handled such a smallsword?
| Sam Barris wrote: | | The trouble with sport fencing is that many of the techniques have strayed very far from what would have been possible with a weapon intended for combat. ... From what I can tell though, it seems that much of what happens in a sport bout would be pointless or suicidal if the combat was with a smallsword or rapier. Likewise, many moves that would have been lethal in combat are at a disadvantage using electric weapons and electric scoring, since many modern fencing attacks exist to fool the scoring machine into thinking that a successful touch was made when one in fact has not been. |
Yes, I am aware of this. It really is too bad, but I guess all things must evolve, be it by necessity or convenience. It still doesn't discourage me from trying to find a smallsword that handles like my foil or epee, though. 
| Bill Grandy wrote: |
Hi Drew,
As Sam mentioned, some smallswords are not that far removed in handling to the modern epee. They aren't exactly the same, though, since the modern epee is based off of the 19th century duelling sword, which is essentially the same thing only sharp. (though many of the modern reproductions are often larger and heavier than their historical counterparts) The 19th century sword is a slight evolution away from the 18th century smallsword. Because they are not that far removed from each other, many of the techniques are very similar. |
Interesting. Is there a supply for 19th century duelling swords (that aren't larger and heavier than their historical counterparts) or is the market for them even smaller than for smallswords?
| Bill Grandy wrote: | As far as the reviews on this site go, yes, those reference historical fencing for the smallsword, not for the modern sport. You will see that much of the terminology in French smallsword fencing manuals is still used in the sport today. Some of it has changed a little, but the broad concepts are very similar.
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Thanks for the clarification.
| Bill Grandy wrote: |
Classical fencing (the use of the foil, epee and sabre as it was done in the 19th century) is much closer to smallsword fencing, but even with classical fencing there are notable differences, particularly in the stance.
Attached are two images: The first is of Masaniello Parise practicing epee in the Italian style. The second is an image from Olivier's smallsword treatise. Note the difference in posture. |
These images are very informative. Parise is from the late 19th century, right? Should I assume that Olivier was from the 18th century?
Thank you both for your responses. From what you know, should I give up? Or should I try to find a nice 19th century duelling sword instead?
Thanks,
Drew
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Wed 19 Sep, 2007 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| Drew C. wrote: | | Parise is from the late 19th century, right? Should I assume that Olivier was from the 18th century? |
Yes, that is correct on both accounts.
| Quote: | | From what you know, should I give up? |
Definately not!
| Quote: | | Or should I try to find a nice 19th century duelling sword instead? |
Well, it depends on exactly what you want. If you specifically want a sword that is closest to your modern sport weapon, then getting a duelling epee is probably your best bet. I am unaware of modern reproductions, but you may want to consider trying to find an antique: Not only is it better than a reproduction, but you might even find it for about the same price that it would take to recreate one. I'm not sure, I'm just guessing on that based on the fact that the weapons aren't as popular as many other weapons [yet].
If you like the look of smallswords, though, don't feel like you have to go for another weapon. Even though the modern sport is a few steps away on the "evolutionary chart", we are still talking about a closely related weapon, and something that is still very representative of the history of the modern sport. I've seen a number of modern fencing schools, in fact, that hang up images of 18th century smallsword fencing treatises as decoration.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Sam Barris
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| Posted: Wed 19 Sep, 2007 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| Drew C. wrote: | | That's actually kind of what I was hoping to hear, have you personally handled such a smallsword? |
Yes, but only one antique. I'm wary of drawing conclusions from such a small sample.
| Drew C. wrote: | | Yes, I am aware of this. It really is too bad, but I guess all things must evolve, be it by necessity or convenience. |
I'm not sure if I'd call it evolution. I personally feel that once fencing stopped relating to combat, its evolution stopped. Any changes after that point could only serve to degrade the art. Particularly if we're talking about flicks and electric scoring. But that's another conversation entirely and I don't want to hijack this thread for it. 
| Drew C. wrote: | | It still doesn't discourage me from trying to find a smallsword that handles like my foil or epee, though. |
Of course not, nor was that my intent. I'm actually very curious about obtaining an antique epee du combat myself, now. I'll do some snooping and let you know if I find anything cool. For what it's worth, I've been considering buying one of A&A's smallswords for more or less the same motives you describe. It's pretty far down the list, but it's there.
| Drew C. wrote: | | From what you know, should I give up? |
Never! And thanks, Bill.
Pax,
Sam Barris
"Any nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." —Thucydides
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Eric Myers
Location: Sacramento, CA Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 214
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| Posted: Wed 19 Sep, 2007 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Sam Barris wrote: |
| Drew C. wrote: | | Yes, I am aware of this. It really is too bad, but I guess all things must evolve, be it by necessity or convenience. |
I'm not sure if I'd call it evolution. I personally feel that once fencing stopped relating to combat, its evolution stopped. Any changes after that point could only serve to degrade the art. Particularly if we're talking about flicks and electric scoring. But that's another conversation entirely and I don't want to hijack this thread for it. |
I don't think it's derailing the topic at all, and it is most definitely evolution. The context for sword use has changed many times through history, and the change to modern fencing is in keeping with this. Each time, swords and swordplay change to better fit the context in which they are used. Later period swords and swordplay were not categorically better than the swords and swordplay that came before them, they were just more appropriate for their context.
To be fair, I do agree with you that the art has degraded in many ways with regards to modern sport fencing, but that is really due to a changed context, which I don't care for.
So coming back to whether one should get a small sword or an epee-like duelling sword, if you want something that handles like an epee, then get an epee-like duelling sword and learn the classical actions that were used with it. If you get a small sword, then you should look at learning the actions associated with that weapon, rather than try to use it like an epee. If you are just going to be a collector, then get whichever one you like best :-)
Eric Myers
Sacramento Sword School
ViaHup.com - Wiki di Scherma Italiana
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Eric Johanen
Location: West Bend,WI. Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Wed 19 Sep, 2007 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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Robert, Small swords can be a very interesting subject. What style, which supplier, and what you want to do with them? After looking at alot of them, I ordered two. For parterned drilling and bouting, I have the #2 Ticonderoga model from Smiling Fox Forge. I did a bit of cleanup on the blade, added a plastic epee tip with a plasti dip tool handle coating to build it up a bit. Straightened the quillon to make it more comfortable, made a new blade pad of heavier leather and disassembled the hilt to replace the leather spacers with thicker leather and put it back together and peened the tang to the pommel. This is very serviceable and has worked well for its intended use. The other smallsword is the G. Gedney Godwin in white bronze with ebony grip, belt clip and chain hanger. This is a nice smallsword. I've replaced the blade pad with a new one I made with thicker leather, nicer shape and dyed black. Looks much better! I am also in the process of slightly reshaping the point to make it sharper for solo live steel practice and will be using it for living history activities. There is also the option of remounting the sword to get something different. Take the Godwin smallsword and remount the blade with a different hilt and use the hilt mounted to a blade with a diamond or triangluar profile. The variations are many and can be a nice project and just great fun. Good luck in your search.
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Drew C.
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| Posted: Thu 20 Sep, 2007 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the responses again! Bill, you mentioned that I should try to find an antique. Looking for reproductions of 19th century dueling swords was pretty fruitless. How much would I look to pay for an antique?
Sam: Maybe I'll make that my motive as well, also really far down the list.
Thanks,
Drew
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Thu 20 Sep, 2007 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Drew C. wrote: | | Thanks for the responses again! Bill, you mentioned that I should try to find an antique. Looking for reproductions of 19th century dueling swords was pretty fruitless. How much would I look to pay for an antique? |
I'm afraid I'm not the best person to ask. It's outside of my main area of focus, but I suspect they wouldn't be too much more expensive than a modern reproduction, based on the fact that they aren't as widely sought after compared to other styles of swords. Also, I've seen 19th century foils that were under $100. But I'm only guessing about the duelling swords, I haven't done the research myself. You may want to search for the term epee du combat.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Fri 21 Sep, 2007 4:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Looking for reproductions of 19th century dueling swords was pretty fruitless. How much would I look to pay for an antique? |
I have seen them from time to time on eBay and on dealer sites. Really fine examples can be over $1000, and more plain examples can be anywhere between $300-$600. It is not uncommon to find them sold as pairs. Sorry to be so vague with the prices, but that's antiques for ya!
Jonathan
Last edited by Jonathan Hopkins on Fri 21 Sep, 2007 9:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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Robert T.
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| Posted: Fri 21 Sep, 2007 5:32 am Post subject: |
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wow, I am learning so much from you guys on the history and art of smallsword handling and swordplay. I am buying one today (payday) and I will let you guy's know whihc model I go for.
Robert.
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Bob Burns
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| Posted: Fri 21 Sep, 2007 5:56 am Post subject: |
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Hey Robert, that's really great to hear your going to get your smallsword! I'm sorry I could not be of any help in regard to the use of or the history of the smallsword, but I just don't know anything about this type of sword.
What I "do know" is how to fenagle things around to appropriate money towards a sword, polearm, etc. 
Although, if I buy a sword before 2008, there is a good chance it will be a prosthesis sticking out of my body via my wife!
However, I get a lot of joy in vicariously celebrating another colleagues acquisition, regardless as to whether it is something expensive or inexpensive, I attain happiness for my fellow collectors, so Robert I am really looking forward to hearing about your new smallsword.
Sounds like it's nigh upon the day of joy!
Bob
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Drew C.
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| Posted: Fri 21 Sep, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Jonathan Hopkins wrote: | | Quote: | | Looking for reproductions of 19th century dueling swords was pretty fruitless. How much would I look to pay for an antique? |
I have seen them from time to time on eBay and on dealer sites. Really fine examples can be over $1000, and more plain examples can be anywhere between $300-$600. It is not uncommon to find them sold as pairs. Sorry to be so vague with the prices, but that's antiques for ya!
Jonathan |
Thanks, Jonathan!
So I did a quick eBay search and I found this guy:
http://cgi.ebay.com/FINE-PAIR-OF-FRENCH-DUELI...dZViewItem
Is this a good example of what I'm looking for? What kind of questions should I ask, i.e. what's important to consider when buying antiques? I guess it's a sword that was possibly used in duels, but maybe it could just be decorative (which would be unfortunate).
Thanks,
Drew
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Fri 21 Sep, 2007 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Drew C. wrote: | | Jonathan Hopkins wrote: | | Quote: | | Looking for reproductions of 19th century dueling swords was pretty fruitless. How much would I look to pay for an antique? |
I have seen them from time to time on eBay and on dealer sites. Really fine examples can be over $1000, and more plain examples can be anywhere between $300-$600. It is not uncommon to find them sold as pairs. Sorry to be so vague with the prices, but that's antiques for ya!
Jonathan |
Thanks, Jonathan!
So I did a quick eBay search and I found this guy:
http://cgi.ebay.com/FINE-PAIR-OF-FRENCH-DUELI...dZViewItem
Is this a good example of what I'm looking for? What kind of questions should I ask, i.e. what's important to consider when buying antiques? I guess it's a sword that was possibly used in duels, but maybe it could just be decorative (which would be unfortunate).
Thanks,
Drew |
There is a lot to consider when buying antiques! To be honest, I would not know what would be considered good or bad examples of antique dueling epees. From a general standpoint, however, their condition seems quite acceptable for 19th century weapons. The questions I would ask would probably be about the condition--some of the questions have already been answered by the seller, but you could ask: Are the hilts still tight or have they become loose? Are there any visible maker's marks? Are there any signs that the swords have been repaired at any point in time? What is your return policy?
It's anyone's guess as to whether or not these swords have seen an actual duel. They are not decorator pieces.
Jonathan
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Robert T.
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| Posted: Sat 22 Sep, 2007 5:49 am Post subject: |
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I bought the arms and armor smallsword. The reason is I can make payments on it, and since it won't be done for about six weeks anyway, I am content. It's such a beautiful sword, I cannot wait to handle it personally. Christopher Poor (the owner) was the one who dealt with my order, and was a great help to me. I will gladly work with them on my next purchase.
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Stephen Paschall
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| Posted: Sat 22 Sep, 2007 11:18 pm Post subject: Exploiting you sport fencers... |
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This is slightly off topic, so please don't scream at me, but: My wife is a volunteer fencing coach, and she works her butt off for no reward apart from the excitement on her kids' faces. I'd like to get her a good reproduction weapon (for display only) as a birthday gift and a pat on the back for a job well done. See this post.
I'm trying to learn as much about the reproduction sword market as I can as quickly as I can so I can make an informed choice. I'd like to get her something of especial historic relevance to the development of the modern épée. Unlike Drew et al., she won't be putting it to the test (I hope), but I'd like a quality weapon that I can be proud to give her, preferably something with an interesting provenance.
Any thoughts or suggestions as to which style / period weapons I might want to consider? What would you guys like me to give you if you were in her place?
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Sam Barris
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| Posted: Sat 22 Sep, 2007 11:44 pm Post subject: Re: Exploiting you sport fencers... |
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| Stephen Paschall wrote: | | Any thoughts or suggestions as to which style / period weapons I might want to consider? What would you guys like me to give you if you were in her place? |
http://www.arms-n-armor.com/rapier215.html
Pax,
Sam Barris
"Any nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." —Thucydides
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sun 23 Sep, 2007 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: Exploiting you sport fencers... |
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| Stephen Paschall wrote: | This is slightly off topic, so please don't scream at me, but: My wife is a volunteer fencing coach, and she works her butt off for no reward apart from the excitement on her kids' faces. I'd like to get her a good reproduction weapon (for display only) as a birthday gift and a pat on the back for a job well done. See this post.
I'm trying to learn as much about the reproduction sword market as I can as quickly as I can so I can make an informed choice. I'd like to get her something of especial historic relevance to the development of the modern épée. Unlike Drew et al., she won't be putting it to the test (I hope), but I'd like a quality weapon that I can be proud to give her, preferably something with an interesting provenance.
Any thoughts or suggestions as to which style / period weapons I might want to consider? What would you guys like me to give you if you were in her place? |
Well for high end quality you can look at A & A and here is their rapier page, although you could also look at the swords and daggers as options. A really nice dagger would be less costly.
http://www.arms-n-armor.com/rapiers.html
For a variety of swords from a reliable vendor this site: http://www.kultofathena.com/
Look at Windlass, Hanwei and again Arm & Armour as this distributor has some of them for immediate delivery.
You can browse this site by different categories: Makers, type of product, culture and filter out the " so-called " battle ready swords from the purely decorative wallhangers. Price and quality vary from very cheap to high end like A & A and Albion.
The Windlass and Hanwai are mid range in quality and price and some look very good for the price and are safe and functional.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Eric Johanen
Location: West Bend,WI. Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Wed 26 Sep, 2007 6:29 pm Post subject: Smallsword and tranquility |
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I have reshaped the point of my Godwin smallsword and in working with it , I,ve become concerned with matters of honor. Every empty cardboard box around the house is making a point to offend me. This, as a matter of course requires that I draw my blade and defend myself. Simple or compound attacks and reposts delivered in carte, tierce, seconda and cart over the arm are very effective against my poorly trained opponents. The affairs are usually concluded on the first pass, rarely, a second or third engagement. Now, however, after numerous affairs of honor, my opponents are making less appearences in my presence and I find myself growing tranquil and more tolerant. Several deliveries should be arriving in the next week and I'm sure their cardboard boxes will prove to be just as offensive as their predecessors. I do like this smallsword. The appearence, fit, and balance make it a joy to use. Being in season, some loutish pumpkins may also give offence. I am having a bit of fun with this smallsword.
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Seth M. Borland
Location: Millbrook Alabama Joined: 29 Jun 2007
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Sun 21 Oct, 2007 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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If I could pick... it would be between the A&A sivered smallsword, the Cold Steel one, or the GGG one.
Now if it only had a normal smallsword blade, had brass wire on the handgrip, and lacked the spiral decorations on the shell and knuckle guards, as well as the decoration at the tip of the knuckle guard, I'd go straight for the GGG. The reason is because it is the closest one out there to the smallsword used in the Pirates of the Caribbean movies (one of my favorite movie swords)... of which there is no replica available and a custom 100% accurate sword made for you directly from the original maker (yes, I've talked to him about a custom, one of a kind replica for a fan) will drain $2,000+ from your wallet, regardless of whether it is an aluminum bladed, polished copper/nickel hilted sword like the movie prop or an idealized all-steel functional weapon. So yeah, if GGG could do a custom piece that meets my interests... then I would go straight to them for my little bundle of joy! lol
The Cold Steel one would be next on my list... or #1 if GGG cant make my dream sword.
The next one I would go for would be this scottish smallsword that is on ebay a lot. I believe CAS Iberia makes it.
Then I would go for the A&A. It is last because it is A.) EXPENSIVE! And B) it uses a reground epee blade... so whats the point? Is the $600 for the hilt? I'm not one for detailed carvings and silver/gold hilts. I like my hilt steel, and as plain as possible, but still retaining its beauty. That is why I prefer the GGG, and especially my idea for the custom GGG ( and ESPECIALLY the POTC sword), because it is VERY simplistic in design... and yet one of the most beautiful swords I have ever layed eyes on.
Just my 2 cents.
Seth
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sun 21 Oct, 2007 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Seth!
| Seth M. Borland wrote: | | Then I would go for the A&A. It is last because it is A.) EXPENSIVE! And B) it uses a reground epee blade... so whats the point? Is the $600 for the hilt? |
Well, it's expensive because it's a very labor intensive, hand crafted piece. And the reason it uses a reground epee blade is because:
1) Many people use them for smallsword fencing (blunted, of course)
2) A&A reground epee blades are actually more accurate than most other production blades. In fact, I would suspect that the sword would be considerably more expensive had the blades been fully produced from the ground up by A&A. In fact, the GGG and the A&A are the only production smallswords I've yet to handle that have very accurate handling properties.
Not that I'm trying to dissuade you from your other preferred swords. I think your choices are perfectly valid, and I certainly can understand a budgetary concern. I just wanted to clarfiy, that's all. I've been lucky and have gotten the chance to handle each of the swords you mention.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Seth M. Borland
Location: Millbrook Alabama Joined: 29 Jun 2007
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Sun 21 Oct, 2007 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: | Hi Seth!
| Seth M. Borland wrote: | | Then I would go for the A&A. It is last because it is A.) EXPENSIVE! And B) it uses a reground epee blade... so whats the point? Is the $600 for the hilt? |
Well, it's expensive because it's a very labor intensive, hand crafted piece. And the reason it uses a reground epee blade is because:
1) Many people use them for smallsword fencing (blunted, of course)
2) A&A reground epee blades are actually more accurate than most other production blades. In fact, I would suspect that the sword would be considerably more expensive had the blades been fully produced from the ground up by A&A. In fact, the GGG and the A&A are the only production smallswords I've yet to handle that have very accurate handling properties.
Not that I'm trying to dissuade you from your other preferred swords. I think your choices are perfectly valid, and I certainly can understand a budgetary concern. I just wanted to clarfiy, that's all. I've been lucky and have gotten the chance to handle each of the swords you mention. |
No problem man. I understand where you're coming from.
So reground epee blades are more accurate you say? How? I've not seen a historical blade that looks remotely close to an epee in terms of overall shape and dimensions. To me, I see smallsword blades and epee blades as two different shapes and forms. This is one reason why I find the old A&A smallsword detestable to look at because nothing about it looks truly historical or handmade in anyway (except for the grip wire maybe)... it almost looks like a crude practice weapon... the quillons, the knuckleguard, the shells, the grip, and that obvious olympic sport epee blade just seem to me as different than all the others... and not in a good way. No offense if you have this sword... but to me, it is my least favorite smallsword design.
The silvered A&A at least looks like it gives some effort to look "real" in a way, the convex part of the triangular cross section of the blade is quite convincing and the forte doesnt show any signs of previously being an epee blade... and thats a plus since unaltered epees have that annoying semi-circle/triangular/concaved triangle cross section to their fortes. Now for the underside, I cant tell from the pictures. I do know that some smallswords made from epees tend to fall short in this area because of the differences in appearence between historical smallswords and modern sport epees (again, using the visual differences I see between the two), especially the length, width and depth of the fuller (if there is one that is). The fullers on the previous A&A smallsword and the Cold Steel smallsword look terrible... but I cant say the same for the silvered A&A due to the tiny pictures and the shininess of the blade. Could anyone clear this up for me? Thank you!
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