[Angus Trim]

If it was me, I wouldn't rush to judgement on maker, sword type, or sword model. If anything is under indictment here, it should be the way swordmaker and sword enthusiast interact here on the forums. The "feedback" if you will.

What I'm talking about here, is that reviews and commentary on swords focus on aesthetics {of course}, and handling above things like terminal performance.

How realistic or historically accurate the test is, isn't what I'm looking at. I actually do not have an opinion here on that. What we have, is a target that both "gives", and has some resistance.

Swords that have had some success cutting this medium have been at least moderately rigid, and I believe that Michael has had no problem getting them up to "terminal velocity".

Terminal velocity is a term that we used to bandy about, the velocity that a given individual can get a sword up to before the sword strikes the target.

On sword type a few excerts from Oakeshott in "Records":

"The sword handles well, but as may be expected of a slashing sword, the point of balance is well down toward the point. {XIII.1}

"The point of balance is well down towards the point, ideal for a weapon designed to deal slow, powerful slashing blows." {XIIIa.2}

"it handles well so long as one swings it in the manner for which it was designed, that is to deal, great slow slashing blows" XIIIa.8}

The point being that many, many historical XIII's and XIIIa's likely had the center of gravity further down the blade, than the text Duke. The Duke is a XIIIa that weighs 3lbs 4, and has a cog of less than six inches. The sword handles though, such that most of its customers are enthralled.

I do this too. My four fullered XIIIa currently on the "Maker's Mark" page is also a handling sword, probably pretty close to apples to apples with the Duke.

What makes me risk potential flames here, is that in order to "get the handling" in swords like this, one has to compromise something. What I did, was to have the distal taper come down from the cross extremely quick, ie, most of the distal taper is accomplished in the forte. I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't how the Duke's blade is too. Handles wonderfully, but.......

If you look back at what Michael says, he says that he could feel the sword flex before impact, and it flexed even more after impact. With a target like this, that means you lose any potential for cutting the target.

I suspect that the Baron would do a bit better, assuming that the velocity could be brought up before impact. With a target like this, velocity is very important too.

I think a XIIIish blade, with a distal taper meant more for support of the cutting area, than for handling, that a better performance would be achieved. Not maybe better than the best pieces earlier in the test, but probably would cut the target somewhat.

In my curiousity on this subject, I've offerered to send Michael a XIII that is currently having a scabbard made, and will go to 4W with me. Afterwards, I can ship it to Michael.

I want to stress, this is not meant as a manufacturer test {because I make some similar stuff, dynamically speaking}, but whether a different blade geometry type, "within the same typology", would have a different result.......

My thought on this, is that we {as swordmakers} have listened to you {the sword buying enthusiasts} and answered with swords that would handle beyond your expectations {thus getting the online plaudits}. If I'm right, and the shouldered XIII does a bit better, then we may have to have further discussion, about handlling vs terminal performance........If I'm all wet, well, it won't be the first time......

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

[Peter Johnsson]

The Duke is made, patterned after, type XIIIa swords that I have personally handled and measured.
It is *not* designed or tweaked outside its type, to meet popular market demands on sweet and effortless handling, but rather made with the idea that customers have asked for realistic reconstructions of historical swords and sword types.
The Duke was one of the first swords I designed for the Next Generation line and if anything I´d like to make a new hilt that would push the forward pivot point even further towards the point. This would make it even more responsive and perhaps also less true to the popular image of what the type XIIIa is supposed to be. I would like to do this because I have since the Duke was designed, met other swords of this type that share just such characteristics. Doubtless it would also be interesting to revisit the blade itself. It would be great fun to offer another type XIIIa for the NG line, but that is a never ending urge ;-)

I have held type XIIIa´s that had an even "sweeter" balance than the Duke, but also examples that were more ponderous. The Duke is no extreme, but an example of the type built on what I have experienced from seeing/holding actual originals. No more and no less.

If the Duke cuts or does not cut a certain medium is a result of at three equally important parts of the equation: sword, target and method/technique used in cutting. Change one of these and you will get different results. The results are still going to be interesting!
This is said simply to make clear that I do not in anyway want to argue the pros or cons of the Duke in this context: I am quite happy to learn from Michaels tests and results as they are.

I agree with what what Gus says (when quoting Oakeshott) on this point: XIIIa swords *typically* benefit by or invite a different approach than a "light" and responsive long sword of later eras. It is quite possible that a sword balanced to have less agility, or more blade presence would deal more murderous blows on this very target. A sword with the same dynamic balance, but a stiffer blade would probably also give a different result. It would be an interesting study to see, providing you could gather enough good representations of type XIIIa swords together.
I have a feeling that the stiffness of the blade during the swing and cut, is the major element for the result (and perhaps especially against padded or armoured targets). This has to do with sword type, individual sword as much as the swordsman himself. A thinner, more flexible blade can be kept more or less rigid during the swing depending on technique: how it is wielded.

It is indeed illuminating to read what Oakeshott says about XIIIa swords (and I have a feeling he is talking about the high medieval war swords). It is a good primer in preparing for what to expect. "Great blows", is the key word, I think.
On the other hand, swords such as this has an "overkill" capacity that you might expect to deliver amputating cuts on exposed limbs with a cut delivered simply from the elbow. Key words are: *exposed limbs*. This, I imagine, would be a real benefit and advantage in a sword fight: you do not have to signal your attack by lifting your blade high over your shoulder, but can do a quick "chop" and still hope to end the fight, leaving your opponents sword hand on the ground.
-But obvioulsy not if his arms are well armoured!

A comment on sword types and what to expect: you will find XIIIa swords that to all purpose and intent are light and slim long swords either mounted as war swords or lighter H&H swords from late 14th or early 15th C: they share little with their high medieval counterparts, except that they still fit the Oakeshott classification as XIIIa blades. The Oakeshott typology is no complete design concept. You cannot go by his description alone, and hope to arrive at good representations of historical swords.

I have no doubt that another example of this type of sword could reach other results. I expect that the Cheiftain, that shares the very same blade but that has another kind of dynamic balance, would deliver differently than the Duke. A completely different XIIIa blade would also be expected to cover another range of capabilities. It is all about what you want to stress or what you think is important when the blade is shaped and mounted.
SImply to have the Duke blade ground from the same blade blank but kept with a hexagonal section instead of brought to lenticular would provide an interesting comparison. It would be stiffer to start with. Such a blade also mounted differently than the Duke, would be an interesting sibling to see in action. Similar but also quite different.
You see originals that are both thinner and thicker in the blade, wider and more narrow in the body, with more acute edge geometry or more obtuse edges, with proportionally heavier pommels (or pivot points further towards the point) or perhaps even lighter pommels. There is variation in the material (as well as trends, let´s not forget that!), and you are bound to also see variation in the results of any specific situation.

I would also like to stress that I personally really do not have to see the Duke excel in this test, to be able to sleep at night.
I am still curious to know what would happen if the sword is wielded in such a way that the blade is not felt to be flexing during the swing. This is not an attempt to belittle Michaels test in any way. It is simply an observation on one of the many variables.
It is interesting (and indeed a privilege) to see the capabilities and limitations of swords I´ve developed, when used by different hands. Learning from this, I will know new things to look out for next time I visit a museum.

[Michael Edelson]

Success!!!!

I decided to go outside and give it another go and was able to cut some layers on the 20x jack and in the process discovered something interesting.

I struck the target using the COP about 8 times and managed to cut it once. I was trying to intensify the power and cocking the sword back a lot, etc.

Here's the result, and it's the less interesting of the two:





To me, this changes nothing, as I REALLY had to work for this. It did not cut all the way through and while it matched the Earl and the 1508 in its results, I had to work much much harder for those results. The other swords were just a normal (powerful) swing, with only the initial results being measured (I rarely struck twice against the same target).



Now to the interesting part...

A while back I wondered why early swords had spatulate points. You can get a very sharp point on a XIII using almost the same length of steel if you wanted to. I wondered if maybe the swords were primarily meant to be used for cutting with the tip, or maybe some things with the tip(gambesons?) and some with the blade (flesh?). So I tried it.

Three cuts, three penetrations. Not deep, maybe 5 layers tops, but enough to cut through a pre-15th century gambeson. Cutting with the tip felt right with this sword, and yielded easily achievable and consistent results. It also gave you much greater range to work with.

The V shape is two tip slashes, one from the right shoulder, one from the left:



Food for thought, if nothing else.

[Angus Trim]

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Felix R.]

Hello, there came a question to my mind regarding the test setup , perhaps it was already answered. Why didn´t you use one of your flesh simulators covered with the media in question?

[Paul Watson]

Chad, in an earlier post I do say that multiple users would be a good control test so I do agree with you.

Michael I am not sure if I read your post wrong but my comment was not a criticism of your technique abut the ease with which a cut orientated sword should be able to cut a target.

Ciaran , if you are saying that the hanging pell creates a target that is not a good simulator of the dynamics of a target the sword is expected to face then this has great bearing of the relevance of the results. At best this would say that against a target that may have the chance of moving in such a way (I don't know if any natural human motion to avoid/absorb/lessen a blades effectiveness would match that of a hanging pell) that a sword of this type would have diminshed cutting ability.

[Randall Pleasant]

[Michael Edelson]

Jean,

I'll give it a shot and let you know how it goes.


Felix,

I'm not sure what you mean by "my" flesh simulators, but with the exception of the occasional pork product I use tatami. I did not use pork for this test because it is disgusting and would require that I wash the jack sample after each test. Also, the volume of pork required to match the mass of pell would be expensive, not to mention would have every stray dog in the Brooklyn toppling over my garbage can.

As for tatami, it's expensive and difficult to work with, and I would need a lot of it (replace after a few cuts).

Paul,

I was agreeing with you, sorry it didn't come out clearly. It should absolutely not be hard to get good results out of a cut oriented sword, which to me means that while other people may get better results, does that really matter? It is the relative results (sword type vs sword type) that we should be looking at.

As for the pell, having hit both people and the pell on numerous occasions, I can say with reasonable certainty that the pell sometimes reacts like a person, and sometimes it doesn't. The same would be true of any other target type, such as a five tatami mat roll, which is something I considered.

[Felix R.]

Indeed I was thinking of the pork and tatami. I just called these "yours" because you mentioned them above.

As for the amount of tatami or pork needed; how many of those jack pads did you use for the tests? With the number of effective cuts you made I can´t imagine the number of tatami or pork could be significant expense, but perhaps I am wrong.

You mentioned several tatamis knit together but these would be a "body" simulator, wouldn´t it be good idea to also think of limb simulators? Cuts to the arms, legs and neck for example in that case I could consider the dimensions of one tatami covered ok. On the other hand on pork cut in half is not too expensive and at least in the BBQ season would make a nice event with friends. As you seem to have the proper support for hanging monting the pell, just mount the pork.
These are just my considerations, from my point of view this could improve your so far impressive work and efforts a little.

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

Thanks Peter and Angus for the explanations!

I think it could be very interesting to see a more detailed study of how dynamic properties are correlated (or uncorrelated) to Oakeshott's typology. Possibly some types show more variations than others?

Michael,

Interesting you were able to cut deeper and more consistently with the very tip than with the CoP, or more accurately sweetspot. As Randall said I guess this is another nail in the coffin of the "always cut at the sweetspot" idea

That said, the result seems a bit contradictory with the earlier hypothesis that the lack of cutting stemmed from bending? Or is the very tip, due to its shape, less sensitive to bending when cutting?

[Michael Edelson]

[Angus Trim]

[Paul Watson]

[Michael Edelson]

[Angus Trim]

[Angus Trim]

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Mrak E.Smith]

it's an amazing topic, unfortunately the pics are unavailable now.
Can someone fix it? Here's my gratitude