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Florian H.




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PostPosted: Sun 03 Feb, 2008 5:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think that in a combat situation this would be very difficult to achieve, but does the sword also bend, and thus loose its correct edge alignment when the swinging motion is done in one plane, so if you don't change the dirction of the swing, creating an inert force lateral to the blade? or does it warp and bend on impact, like a steel beam would, when a bending moment is applied? I think that these long, broad cutting blades like XIIIa would even more tend to bend, since they are much longer than previous styles, the blades cross-section has a very low axial angular impulse and they have much mass distributed to the tip creating unfavorable leverage when an inert force is applied, during changing the direction of a swing for example, making it bend pretty easily. So I would think it's reasonable to say that blades of this style are the easiest to bend and thus blows with them must be executed very acurately and they are very difficult to handle. But that would be a huge disadvantage in the chaotic situation of a battle.
By the way, the equation for the sword bending is depending on the axial angular moment around the axis it's bent around, the moment applied, of course, and the materials coefficient of elasticity. if you have a given blade and a given force, determined by the impact you make, the ammount of bending is only depending on the e modulus of the material, and for steel that is 2,1x10^5, and this figure doesn't change even through heat treat. so as long as the deformation is not permanent, both swords bend equally.
but, these are just my thoughts, and could very well be wrong at all.
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Michael Edelson




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PostPosted: Sun 03 Feb, 2008 6:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Florian,

I did notice the bending prior to impact and optimized the cutting motion to eliminate any detectable bending, but I have to stress the word "detectable". You can feel the bend in the hands more than you can see it, and I didn't feel any after making the adjustments.

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sun 03 Feb, 2008 8:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael,
I find these test results fascinating, though I'd still like to see the tests repeated with other cutters. From my own personal experience, I can cut better with some swords than other swords. On top of that, other people I know from cutting parties often do well with swords I can't cut worth a darn with, while I do well with things that don't work for them. The human factor is very important.

Our own mechanics, experience, and preferences factor in in no small way. If you take 10-15 (preferably more) people with a wide variety of experience and have them do the same tests, I'd bet there would be some variety to the results.

Your tests are very interesting to me and I'm glad you posted them. For the moment, I'm taking them as a report of your own experience rather than as proof of a global concept.

Please note that this is not a condemnation of you or your technique. Happy Scientifically speaking, I just want to see the results verified by a number of other cutters with various backgrounds and levels of skill.

Happy

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Michael Edelson




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PostPosted: Sun 03 Feb, 2008 8:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Chad,

I understand what you're saying completely and I couldn't agree more, with a caveat. As much as I've tried to avoid tooting my own horn up to this point, my own skill and experience must be taken into account if you're going to evaluate the results objectively. I'm not the best cutter out there, by far, but I am good. I have been practicing swordsmanship for a total of 14 years and I run a WMA school. My test cutting experience is extensive and my achievements in this area have not been trivial. My results alone should not be taken as definitive for all the reasons you mentioned, but they should not be diminished as the experience of an average Joe either (no offense to the average Joe).

Furthermore, I have achieved abosolutely outstanding results with both the Duke and the Tritonia against a wide variety of other cutting media. The jack is the first time either of these swords has not absolutely floored me with its cutting ability, which is why I found the resulsts so surprising.

I'm not trying to make this about me and how awesome and cool I am Happy , but for people to put these tests into the proper perspective, this information must be taken into account.

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Paul Watson




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PostPosted: Sun 03 Feb, 2008 8:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The fact that the XIII's cannot cut this type of armour shocked me. I wonder if XII's with slightly stiffer blades would fare any better.
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, but that which it protects. (Faramir, The Two Towers)
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sun 03 Feb, 2008 8:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Edelson wrote:
Hi Chad,

I understand what you're saying completely and I couldn't agree more, with a caveat. As much as I've tried to avoid tooting my own horn up to this point, my own skill and experience must be taken into account if you're going to evaluate the results objectively. I'm not the best cutter out there, by far, but I am good. I have been practicing swordsmanship for a total of 14 years and I run a WMA school. My test cutting experience is extensive and my achievements in this area have not been trivial. My results alone should not be taken as definitive for all the reasons you mentioned, but they should not be diminished as the experience of an average Joe either (no offense to the average Joe).

Furthermore, I have achieved abosolutely outstanding results with both the Duke and the Tritonia against a wide variety of other cutting media. The jack is the first time either of these swords has not absolutely floored me with its cutting ability, which is why I found the resulsts so surprising.

I'm not trying to make this about me and how awesome and cool I am Happy , but for people to put these tests into the proper perspective, this information must be taken into account.


As I said, I'm not denigrating nor discounting your skill. I never called you an average Joe either. Happy I have much respect for you.

Scientifically, though, if we want to prove something like this beyond any doubt, the results must be repeatable and gleaned from a larger set of data. If the results hold true for others of your skill level, as well as for those with more skill and less skill, then the results carry more weight.

I think your test results are interesting and significant, though. I just want to see if other people's experiences match up. That would be the clincher for me.

Happy

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Michael Edelson




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PostPosted: Sun 03 Feb, 2008 8:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:

As I said, I'm not denigrating nor discounting your skill. I never called you an average Joe either. Happy I have much respect for you.

Scientifically, though, if we want to prove something like this beyond any doubt, the results must be repeatable and gleaned from a larger set of data. If the results hold true for others of your skill level, as well as for those with more skill and less skill, then the results carry more weight.

I think your test results are interesting and significant, though. I just want to see if other people's experiences match up. That would be the clincher for me.


Hey, thanks! Happy

You're absolutely right, and furthermore, I think this is important enough that we should perhaps consider arranging this type of test if we can. Perhaps a few interested individuals might consider purching some samples from Matuls or antoher source and sending them to interested parties that happen to own a type XIII? I'd be in a for a share. Alternatively, if there is someone in my area that wants to come down and use my Duke or Tritonia, I'd be perfectly willing to make this happen. The sample I have is ratty but still in barely acceptable shape for a test.

I think it's important because we as a community have made a lot of assumptions about textile armor, especially in the early periods from which good records are scarce. If a popular sword of the period fares very poorly against these defensese then perhaps that can give us the information we need to adjust our knowledge base.

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Last edited by Michael Edelson on Sun 03 Feb, 2008 8:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sun 03 Feb, 2008 8:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Also very " surprising " and if the results are proven consistent one might wish to speculate that the more thrust oriented swords became popular not only for their piercing qualities but incidentally also where better cutters of cloth armour ?

Also, the speculation that cloth armour might not have been used by itself very early in the maille period, at least as stand alone armour. Maybe, later on when this type of armour proved semi-proof against arrows it was discovered that the cutting types of swords performed poorly. The thrusting type swords are believed to have been made mostly to get in between the gaps in plate armour but may also have proven more effective against cloth armour in thrust but surprisingly more effective in the cut also !?

So maybe there is a which came first " chicken or the egg " thing going on here were something invented to deal with one problem ( Arrows ?) ends up dealing well with 3 more ? ( Plate, piercing cloth armour and cutting cloth armour ).

( EDITED: The previous sentence is a bit confusing as the cloth armour MAY have been made popular because of effectiveness against arrows, but its the type XV and XVII swords that may have been developed for one or more of the reasons stated in my sentence. I'm leaving the "garbled/confusing sentence intact/unchanged for context ).

Did pointy swords become popular first to deal with plate or to deal with cloth armour ! Pointy would be the first thing one would think of trying, maybe, when the cutting swords seemed inadequate to deal with the padded armour and the greater effectiveness in the cut a surprising side effect ! At the same time plate became popular and pointy swords would also be the obvious counter ?

Just postulating possibilities that seem to be logical assuming the tests prove to be valid in general and not just for this test or tester. ( As stated by others this is not a criticism of the tests or their validity, only that the questions raised contradict our natural expectations. Eek! Laughing Out Loud Cool )

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Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Mon 04 Feb, 2008 4:01 am; edited 2 times in total
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Mon 04 Feb, 2008 1:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael, This is thought provoking and quite surprising!
I have read your results with interest and was surprised about the lack of cutting you saw with the Tritonia and Duke.

I think a clue might be that you experience a flexing of the blades even before they hit the target. That would have noticeable impact on the result.
If you try to swing the blades with the focus of *not* inviting a torque or flex, but rather letting them follow an absolute plane into and through the target, I would think you get another result.

You are right that the speed with which the swords hit the target is of paramount importance, but in the case with these thinner blades I would think that hand and body movements are crucial in making sure the blade follows a "neutral" path coming into and through the target.

Please keep doing these tests. It is interesting read!
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Michael Edelson




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PostPosted: Mon 04 Feb, 2008 5:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
Michael, This is thought provoking and quite surprising!
I have read your results with interest and was surprised about the lack of cutting you saw with the Tritonia and Duke.


Hi Peter,

I just want to emphasise that the jack is the only target in which I saw poor results with these swords. Agaisnt other media these swords are incredible cutters. As I'm sure you're aware, they are absolutely devastating against flesh simulators (tatami, etc.).

Quote:
I think a clue might be that you experience a flexing of the blades even before they hit the target. That would have noticeable impact on the result.
If you try to swing the blades with the focus of *not* inviting a torque or flex, but rather letting them follow an absolute plane into and through the target, I would think you get another result.


I was aware of the flexing and modified my stroke to get rid of it. I have a method for measuring edge orientation throughout the cutting arc and after my first two failed attempts I spent a few minutes drilling with each sword to optimize the stroke (each sword takes a bit of adjusting because of its unique characteristics) before trying again. I don't think that pre-impact flexing affected the results that much, I believe it was post impact flexing that did it.

I'm not saying that I succeeded, merely that I think I did, and results against other targets seems to confirm that. But you never know!

If I had to guess at this point what the problem was, I'd say that these large cutting swords are simply not designed for this type of target. There are people over on SFI that say the layered textile defense did not exist prior to the 15th century, and that certainly makes sense considering these results.

Another factor to consider, however, is that the free hanging pell may have affected the results somehow. Perhaps the type of resistance and give it provides were just not compatible with these types of swords. This is a possibility that I will test sometime this week by dismounting the pell and putting it up against a wall.

In fact the more I think about it, the more I agree with Chad...these tests should be done by other people, perhaps under slightly different circumstances.

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Vincent Le Chevalier




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PostPosted: Mon 04 Feb, 2008 7:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael,

I don't remember if you ever mentionned it, but at which angle do you strike your target? Do the results change when the angle change with some of the swords? I'm asking since even on cardboard it can make a significant difference, maybe fabric armor reacts like that also...

I don't think it would explain all the differences, but maybe different swords have different "bite angles"?

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Michael Edelson




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PostPosted: Mon 04 Feb, 2008 7:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
Michael,

I don't remember if you ever mentionned it, but at which angle do you strike your target? Do the results change when the angle change with some of the swords? I'm asking since even on cardboard it can make a significant difference, maybe fabric armor reacts like that also...

I don't think it would explain all the differences, but maybe different swords have different "bite angles"?


I am limited in the angles I can use because the target is vertical, but within those limits I adjusted the angles quite a bit between cuts. The more vertical, the better the results.

Remember that whatever angles I used with the Duke and Tritionia I also used with the katana and the Brescia Spadona.

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Angus Trim




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PostPosted: Mon 04 Feb, 2008 11:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Edelson wrote:


Maybe our modern heat treat that we like to think of as superior makes the swords a litle too prone to flex and vibrations. Period originals were sometimes "poorly" heat treated (by modern standards) and some had significant unhardened or iron content...perhaps that made for a better sword in that it made them less prone to flex (but more pone to bending) and vibration and therefore made them better cutters (harmonic "deadness"). Perhaps our superior modern heat treat is not so superior after all. Certainly it makes the sword more durable, but better? Maybe not.


I raised similar thoughts on modern vs medieval materials etc here:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=12237

But I'm not sure I'm ready to draw any conclusions. Too many other variables. I also have some questions and thoughts, but will mention them later after making sure that they come out clear, so there's no misunderstanding.......

swords are fun
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Paul Watson




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PostPosted: Mon 04 Feb, 2008 3:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeans post seems to suggest a very plausible theory about sword evolution and also raises further questions.

I have typed out many questions and comments about this subject but ended up deleting them all before submitting due to various reasons.

The bottom line is that is there anyone out there who was not suprised by the XIII's poor performance against this type of medium? Were the XIII's expected to face this sort of armour historically or not? How strange is it that such swords which are so heavily orientated to the cut would do so poorly when they perform so well against other reasonable mediums?

The conclusion that they were only suited to cut bare flesh would mean they were severly limited in their use. Of course the blunt trauma from the swords would be substantial, but aren't swords primarily cut or thrust weapons apart from maybe type XVII which were impact weapons.

I don't think it is a question of either the swords correct manufacture or Michaels ability to use them, as other swords produced by the same manufacturer had very different results. Other users may produce different results and that would be a good control test and provide the variety others have talked about, but really how difficult should it be for a cut oriented sword to produce effective cuts against a staionary target.

Perhaps these tests are further testimony to the irrelevance of cutting anything but accurate representations of what the sword was expected to face historically unless it is to prove the reasons that the swords had to evolve.

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, but that which it protects. (Faramir, The Two Towers)
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Ciaran Daly





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PostPosted: Mon 04 Feb, 2008 7:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have to say that I feel the fact you used a hanging pell for the test cutting in question is a huge factor. I suspect you will get dramatically different results from a non-hanging target.
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Paul Watson




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PostPosted: Mon 04 Feb, 2008 8:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ciaran Daly wrote:
I have to say that I feel the fact you used a hanging pell for the test cutting in question is a huge factor. I suspect you will get dramatically different results from a non-hanging target.


I assume much of the latest discussion is based around the latest tests and the surprising lack or effective cutting by the XIII's against the target.

Wouldn't it logically follow that if another form of target improved the results for the XIII's that it would improve the results of all the other swords as well? I may be reading this wrong but it appears that people are looking to question the methodology of the tests more than they are ready to accept these unexpected results. It is clear that against this target, swords of a type that is dedicated to cutting had no effect with respects to cutting, whereas many other swords of other types that are much more thrust orientated or at the very least cut & thrust swords, fared much better.

This test has gone as far as making me rethink a sword purchase that I had finalised, my selected manufacturer will remain the same but the model of sword may be changing.

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, but that which it protects. (Faramir, The Two Towers)
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Mon 04 Feb, 2008 8:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul,
It's a fact that some swords handle better (and just plain work better) in some people's hands than others regardless of skill. If every sword handled equally well for everyone, we wouldn't see so much variety in handling properties, would we? Happy So the reason I want to see more people doing the cutting is to have enough data to spread the performance results among more than one person to get a better picture of how a particular sword or type fares.

I don't expect people to read reviews I do and assume that my results will be exactly the same as theirs. There are cases where people have totally disagreed with my opinion on handling, positively and negatively. It doesn't make any of us wrong, we just have different experiences.

We can't discount personal mechanics, experience, preferences and the interplay of those factors.

Happy

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Michael Edelson




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PostPosted: Mon 04 Feb, 2008 9:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Watson wrote:
...but really how difficult should it be for a cut oriented sword to produce effective cuts against a staionary target?


Seriously!

Yes, there should be more tests by different people and slightly different swords, etc.. Yes, these tests should not be viewed as definitive since I'm just one guy and there are too many variables to form a conclusion, etc.. But for crying out loud! How hard should it be for a big massive cutting sword to cut something a cut/thrust sword can penetrate unless the sword is ill suited for the target?

EVERY other sword I tested cut at least partway through the jack, on the same pell, hanging from the same chain, with the same person cutting. And my Albion Earl is dull when compared to the Duke and the Tritonia.

Maybe if I tried it during the lunar equinox and coated the blade with the blood of a virgin quail that took a bath in a vat of duck urine? Happy
(sorry, couldn't help myself)

It's not like the results are suggesting XIII's and XIIIa's are bad cutters, just that they are bad cutters of layered jacks. Set up some tatami and grab a Duke or Tritonia and see what happens if you wan to feel better about the typology.

Don't forget I too have an emotional investment in these swords and how they perform. They're mine! Happy And I love them just as much today as I did before the test.

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Ciaran Daly





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PostPosted: Mon 04 Feb, 2008 10:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Watson wrote:
Ciaran Daly wrote:
I have to say that I feel the fact you used a hanging pell for the test cutting in question is a huge factor. I suspect you will get dramatically different results from a non-hanging target.


I assume much of the latest discussion is based around the latest tests and the surprising lack or effective cutting by the XIII's against the target.

Wouldn't it logically follow that if another form of target improved the results for the XIII's that it would improve the results of all the other swords as well? I may be reading this wrong but it appears that people are looking to question the methodology of the tests more than they are ready to accept these unexpected results. It is clear that against this target, swords of a type that is dedicated to cutting had no effect with respects to cutting, whereas many other swords of other types that are much more thrust orientated or at the very least cut & thrust swords, fared much better.

This test has gone as far as making me rethink a sword purchase that I had finalised, my selected manufacturer will remain the same but the model of sword may be changing.


You may well be right, but different types of strikes certainly have a radically different effect on say, a heavy bag for example than they do on a person. There are strikes that are murder on an opponent and that look kind of wimpy when you do them on the bag, and vice versa. And I think a lot of this has to do with striking surface used and the "give" or lack of it of a real person versus a hanging object.

My intuition tells me that a sword with a thicker cross section (diamond or scalloped or hexagonal for example) is going to "sink in" to a hanging object more effectively, but on one that is "rooted" to some extent it might not perform quite as well as a thinner blade in the cut. Against a hanging object I can see the give of the blade on impact and the give of the hanging object combining to dramatically reduce performance, where a stiffer sword might not have the same problem, or at least not to the same extent.

All this is of course purest speculation, but I suspect the type XIIIs weren't solely designed for chopping up peasants on the way to market (although I don't mean to impugn that amusing activity). They were designed for war, and while layered soft defenses don't last over the centuries the way mail does - and hence we have less evidence of their use during the time periods in which the XIII was in use, I suspect that they encountered them fairly often, and not just in combination with mail.
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Justin King
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PostPosted: Tue 05 Feb, 2008 6:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have been following this silently since the salient points have been made by others, but I am interested and surprised by the results myself. I think Ciaran has brought up a good point though, that the target or backing behind the jack may make a bigger difference than we think, the way it is suspended and the weight, density and resistance it provides to the blade's impact are critical. A live body can provide different amounts of resistance to such a strike simply by posture, muscle tension, movement, and a huge host of other variables. The angle and direction of the strike plays a huge role also and this has been mentioned but perhaps should be given more account-a downward strike on a man's shoulder will deliver more felt energy than a horizontal cut because the body cannot diplace downward as easily as it can sideways.

Looking at high-speed footage of bullets and other objects striking realistic flesh simulators is very instructive and shows a hydraulic wave that moves first away from the impact zone, then actually pushes back towards it like a wave in a bathtub. What effect this may have on the actual cut I won't speculate on out loud but no cutting test results will ever be 100% valid to me until actual flesh has been used as the target medium, however morbid this may sound. Wood, watermelons, tatami and pool noodles may provide some variation in target mediums but none of them simulates live flesh well at all in my opinion, and cutting flesh is the bottom line, after all.


Last edited by Justin King on Tue 05 Feb, 2008 4:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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