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Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

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PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 5:13 pm    Post subject: Question about a sword in the Cluny Museum         Reply with quote

Anybody know any information about the sword in this picture?

Supposedly it is in the Museum Cluny, Paris, France. I'm trying to find out more about its background; construction, who it belonged too, stats, more photos and all of that. It made it into a museum and appears to be in good shape so I'm thinking it might have a bit of a tale to tell and I'm curious whether anybody knows anything about it around here.

"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy


Last edited by Joe Fults on Mon 27 Aug, 2007 7:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 7:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I zoomed in on the card next to the sword and I can read: Italian or German sword 15th century in French.

Smaller and almost impossible to read I can see something about what collection it's from but can't quite make it out.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
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PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 7:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean,

Thanks...that's more than I knew a few minutes ago! Big Grin

"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
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Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
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PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2007 7:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

BTW...I got the photo from the ARMA Bohemia website.

Not sure where they got it from.

"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
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Mathieu Harlaut




Location: Paris-France
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PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug, 2007 4:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,

I took this picture several years ago. It ended up on Arma Bohemia through the Company of Saynt George mailing-list. The sword is in the National Medieval museum aka "Hotel de Cluny" in Paris.

There is not much more to tell about it. I can give you the name of the collector who owned it before giving it to the museum.
It is quite an anonymous sword, nothing particular about it apart from the fact that it is very well preserved. The handle is in very good shape, very interesting especially it shows how the "rainguard" is connected to the grip. BTW, the rainguard has been most certainly cut and repaired.

The blade is a very norrow and thick type XVa blade. The cross is faceted on only one side, as it is usual for this type.

I believe it is certainly German as many sword of this type are visible on German art and in German musuem.
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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug, 2007 8:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mathieu Harlaut wrote:
Hello,

I took this picture several years ago. It ended up on Arma Bohemia through the Company of Saynt George mailing-list. The sword is in the National Medieval museum aka "Hotel de Cluny" in Paris.

There is not much more to tell about it. I can give you the name of the collector who owned it before giving it to the museum.
It is quite an anonymous sword, nothing particular about it apart from the fact that it is very well preserved. The handle is in very good shape, very interesting especially it shows how the "rainguard" is connected to the grip. BTW, the rainguard has been most certainly cut and repaired.

The blade is a very norrow and thick type XVa blade. The cross is faceted on only one side, as it is usual for this type.

I believe it is certainly German as many sword of this type are visible on German art and in German musuem.


Mathieu,

Thanks so much for the reply and information.

By chance do you have any other photos of it?

"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
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Jeroen Averhals




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PostPosted: Wed 29 Aug, 2007 8:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joe,

this type of sword appears in some of Albrechts Dürer's works.

The Knight, the Death and the Devil (1513)
Knight in armor (1498)
Apocalypse wood carvings (1498)

Maybe this can help you dating the blade.

Jeroen Averhals

Vigor et Veritas
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Mathieu Harlaut




Location: Paris-France
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PostPosted: Wed 29 Aug, 2007 2:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have other pictures. Mostly close up of the cross and grip. I'll post them as soon as I have time.
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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Wed 29 Aug, 2007 3:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mathieu Harlaut wrote:
I have other pictures. Mostly close up of the cross and grip. I'll post them as soon as I have time.


Thank you!!

"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
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Mathieu Harlaut




Location: Paris-France
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PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug, 2007 2:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are most of the picture of the sword. Sorry, some are blurry, particularly the ones showing the full sword. The pictures were made in 2000 and the camera wasn't the best.

I hope you will find what you are looking for. If you are looking for something specific, let me know. I go to the musuem regularly and I might take other pictures if you need.



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Mathieu Harlaut




Location: Paris-France
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PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug, 2007 2:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some more pictures.


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Mathieu Harlaut




Location: Paris-France
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PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug, 2007 2:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And a picture of the pommel that Peter Johnsson took as inspiration for the Albion Burgundian.


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Mathieu Harlaut




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PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug, 2007 2:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And for those you like rondel daggers. It is off-topic t since the dagger is half a meter away from the sword…

The dagger is said to be 14th century by the musuem, but when compared with period artwork it is clearly 15th century. Many burgundian piece of art show such dagger: the tapestry in Bern and above all the portrait of Charles the Bols by Van der Weyden.



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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug, 2007 3:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mathieu,

Given that some museums won't let you take photos, getting something from any collection of originals is a treat. I really appreciate you taking the time to share these with us.

Best,
Joe

"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
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Fabrice Cognot
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PostPosted: Fri 31 Aug, 2007 4:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

..guess who had the chance to play (however liitedly) with this particular sword - and the dagger too - last Tuesday ?

Cool

Though unfortunately, I couldn't take pics.


I wasn't really able to swing the sword around too much, as I was under close scrutiny from the curator (though I hope to make amend for that soon), but I can tell you that just from picking it up, it really is a treat ! I had too little time to study it from any closer, unfortunately. But it certainly works as fine when held one-handed than two-handed. Point response was immediate even one handed, and yet you could feel the strength and stiffness in the blade. A very fine example of an early XVIth century sword (or very late XVth).

The dagger is equally interesting. The back of the blade is flat, and its sides are hollow-ground, making it in addition of the cylindrical roundels a really light weapon, yet still feeling quite effective.

That fish-tail pommel sword (who possibly belonged to a Duke of Milan in the XVth century) was on loan to another museum, unfortunately. But I should be able to study it soon. Hopefully.


Joe : I could ask the curator for more info on the background of that sword if you'd like. Just be patient.

Cheers

Fab

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Mathieu Harlaut




Location: Paris-France
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PostPosted: Fri 31 Aug, 2007 4:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Fabrice,

You should have told me I would have come with you as your document carrier! :-)

Seriously the next time you come to Paris, it would be nice to meet each other.
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Fabrice Cognot
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PostPosted: Fri 31 Aug, 2007 5:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No worries Matthieu, I'll let you know Happy
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Fri 31 Aug, 2007 6:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for sharing the extra photos! I particularly like the roping around the edge of the pommel.
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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Fri 31 Aug, 2007 8:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fabrice Cognot wrote:
..guess who had the chance to play (however liitedly) with this particular sword - and the dagger too - last Tuesday ?

Cool

Though unfortunately, I couldn't take pics.


I wasn't really able to swing the sword around too much, as I was under close scrutiny from the curator (though I hope to make amend for that soon), but I can tell you that just from picking it up, it really is a treat ! I had too little time to study it from any closer, unfortunately. But it certainly works as fine when held one-handed than two-handed. Point response was immediate even one handed, and yet you could feel the strength and stiffness in the blade. A very fine example of an early XVIth century sword (or very late XVth).

The dagger is equally interesting. The back of the blade is flat, and its sides are hollow-ground, making it in addition of the cylindrical roundels a really light weapon, yet still feeling quite effective.

That fish-tail pommel sword (who possibly belonged to a Duke of Milan in the XVth century) was on loan to another museum, unfortunately. But I should be able to study it soon. Hopefully.


Joe : I could ask the curator for more info on the background of that sword if you'd like. Just be patient.

Cheers

Fab


Fabrice,

That would be very nice.

If you could get any statistics...well that would be very nice too.

-Joe

"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Sun 09 Sep, 2007 2:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For those interested in trivia, I looking at some options to get a replica of this sword created.

If Fabrice really is is able to dig up a bit more information about it sometime in the future, I think the project will be very exciting.

Big Grin

"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
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