Here in Ontario, to learn how to drive they make us read a 20 dollar handbook of sorts. We are expected to know it, backwards and forwards, by the time we take our initial test that enables us to drive while supervised. There are very specific indications of when NOT to go driving. The most obvious being not while under the influence, of course, and thus the law we have. But it also cites not to drive while emotionally charged in any way, or having reckless intentions, excessive eating or too little eating, drowzy, and so on and so forth.
I think noting reasons and examples of when and where and WHY not to engage in activities with a sword are paramount to giving it the proper respect it deserves. Though the problem is getting others aware of these "protocols," if you will.
I would like to see manufacturers themselves add a foreward to their product, mentioning the dangers of the item(s). It appears agreed that common sense takes place in this respect... But nowadays, common sense isn't all that common.
| Michael Clark wrote: |
| Here in Ontario, to learn how to drive they make us read a 20 dollar handbook of sorts. We are expected to know it, backwards and forwards, by the time we take our initial test that enables us to drive while supervised. There are very specific indications of when NOT to go driving. The most obvious being not while under the influence, of course, and thus the law we have. But it also cites not to drive while emotionally charged in any way, or having reckless intentions, excessive eating or too little eating, drowzy, and so on and so forth.
. |
Driving regs must be different in B. C. Just the other day(Sunday in fact) 2 BC tourists damn near ran me down breaking the speed limit (55 mph) and giving rude gestures because i was obeying that statute! I'm hoping that Ontario gives some pointers too BC drivers, especially when they're guests! :lol: :lol: :lol:
What gets me heated when something like this happens is to imagine the hoards of lawyers looking for somebody to sue. The guy who committed the murder probably doesn't have much money so who could they go after? The company that made the sword would be a good target. Regardless of whether the litigation is succcessful the company will spend time and resources to defend itself and will be lucky not to be driven out of business. These expenses will be passed on to the consumer along with new safety regulations such as "swords must be sold unsharpened" for liability purposes. Furthermore, people who collect swords could be villified in the media for our "perverse obsession with weapons". There are plenty of countries where you need special licensing to own a sword and some cities here in the US that they can't be shipped to. That is why I bemoan any news story where the object used in the crime is more of a feature than the individual that perpatrated it.
Well, Sean's and Bram's rules would be a good start--now we'll need to elaborate and formalize them a little and maybe we'll get enough material to start an article on sword safety protocols? myArmoury has quite an amount of prestige among the sword crowd and hosting such an article here is likely to get it fairly well know, especially if we can pester the many industry professionals here to put a link to it on their websites. I bet they'll be more than glad to do so.
| Nathan Keysor wrote: |
| What gets me heated when something like this happens is to imagine the hoards of lawyers looking for somebody to sue. . . . . |
Ordinarily your fear might be well founded. A truly accidental death often leads to civil litigation against any deep pocket target defendant who might have only a slight connection to the incident. But in a case like this one, where one spouse has killed the other during a drunken altercation, this sort of litigation is extremely rare. Surviving family members of a crime victim are usually more interested in seeing the wrongdoer punished, rather than seeking to shift the blame onto others. Especially where the surviving heir 's actions caused the death, a lawsuit is unlikely.
We should all keep in mind that newspaper reports often get details wrong in the immediate aftermath this sort of incident. All they can report is the excuse offered by the man when he was first interviewed by the police, before he hired a lawyer. His story will undoubtedly evolve as the reality of the criminal prosecution sinks in and he considers the advice of his court appointed counsel. And the truth of the matter is rarely what the defendant is prepared to admit publicly, even where he settles on a story quickly.
The Rock Springs that the article is mentioning, in case anyone is interested, is Rock Springs, Wyoming. Site of a very nice two year college with a wonderful theatre program. I got my associates there.
The first suggestion I would have is don't have the sword out when you're drunk. Second suggestion is when moving the sword around the house, tip to the ceiling or the ground. I carry mine over my shoulder. I might just be rethinking that after this. I would dare say also that if you don't have a scabbard for a rapier type weapon, a length of PVC pipe purchased at your local hard ware store works just fine. I wouldn't know what to do about a longsword. I suppose back carry would work. It won't look pretty, but unless or until a proper scabbard can be obtained, it'll work just fine.
My last thought is as far as the safety regulations and buyer awareness go, it'll work in the community, but outside that, it won't matter. I would tend to think those of us who have done test cutting know what a good sharp sword can do and would respect that, just like a firearm in my parent's house stays UNLOADED until we get it outside.
Finally, this chap has an uphill battle ahead of him. Alcohol is part of Wyoming's culture (it could be argued it's our ONLY culture) but hurting someone whilst intoxicated is NOT smiled upon. He's going to be a guest in Rawlins for a while; how long will be figured out by the local justice system.
The first suggestion I would have is don't have the sword out when you're drunk. Second suggestion is when moving the sword around the house, tip to the ceiling or the ground. I carry mine over my shoulder. I might just be rethinking that after this. I would dare say also that if you don't have a scabbard for a rapier type weapon, a length of PVC pipe purchased at your local hard ware store works just fine. I wouldn't know what to do about a longsword. I suppose back carry would work. It won't look pretty, but unless or until a proper scabbard can be obtained, it'll work just fine.
My last thought is as far as the safety regulations and buyer awareness go, it'll work in the community, but outside that, it won't matter. I would tend to think those of us who have done test cutting know what a good sharp sword can do and would respect that, just like a firearm in my parent's house stays UNLOADED until we get it outside.
Finally, this chap has an uphill battle ahead of him. Alcohol is part of Wyoming's culture (it could be argued it's our ONLY culture) but hurting someone whilst intoxicated is NOT smiled upon. He's going to be a guest in Rawlins for a while; how long will be figured out by the local justice system.
I like the idea of coming up with a set of guidelines for the safe handling and transportation of swords and other weapons. Worries of the "sword police" enforcing any stated guidelines are unfounded, as there have been guidelines for the safe handling of firearms for decades and we hear of examples every day of people who failed to follow them.
My thought is that we could establish these guidelines and post them as a community service. I would also suggest posting them on other sword forums, as this would have the potential to generate some interest in myArmoury. To further advertise these guidelines, we could have links in our signature lines, or a standing bullet at the top of the page.
Trying to prevent sword and other weapon injuries is a very noble cause. While most of the membership here are cognizant of the dangers inherent in these weapons, we need to be mindful that others are not. There are potentially children and young adolescents perusing this and other weapon-oriented sites.
Learning to respect a weapon as dangerous as a sword through trial and error is a dangerous proposition - the potential for damage is so high that the careless user might not survive to learn from their mistake. If we pool our knowledge, I think we can help. Who knows how many injuries we may prevent, or lives we might save?
My thought is that we could establish these guidelines and post them as a community service. I would also suggest posting them on other sword forums, as this would have the potential to generate some interest in myArmoury. To further advertise these guidelines, we could have links in our signature lines, or a standing bullet at the top of the page.
Trying to prevent sword and other weapon injuries is a very noble cause. While most of the membership here are cognizant of the dangers inherent in these weapons, we need to be mindful that others are not. There are potentially children and young adolescents perusing this and other weapon-oriented sites.
Learning to respect a weapon as dangerous as a sword through trial and error is a dangerous proposition - the potential for damage is so high that the careless user might not survive to learn from their mistake. If we pool our knowledge, I think we can help. Who knows how many injuries we may prevent, or lives we might save?
| B. Stark wrote: |
| Quite frankly, I loathe the idea of "making a set of guidelines". Are the "sword police" going to enforce them? The only thing that keeps a weapon safe is the person holding it, not a set of rules. Also the idea of these guidelines has nothing to do with a homicide that could have just as easily been carried out with a more mundane tool or weapon. It surprises me as well that some folks who are familiar enough with swords need to be given ideas on what is safe handling or not... |
Well said, B Stark.
| Michael G. Myers wrote: | ||
Well said, B Stark. |
Let's not confuse "guidelines" with "rules". Guidelines are a set of "best practices" that are put out there as suggestions. They are not to be enforced by anyone. They're presented and then left for the public to choose to follow or not to follow. As an example, there is an entire industry created that puts out cooking guidelines (known as "cook books") but there is no such "cooking police" to enforce these guidelines. People are free to be bad cooks as they will.
On the next point, I'm right there with Mr. Stark. The tragic homicidal rage that originally prompted this discussion has absolutely nothing to do with safety issues. This incident was a criminal act enacted with intent. It wasn't an accidental breaking of a set of best practices and a bad outcome.
I'd ask people take their discussion of safety protocols to a more appropriate venue such as This Spotlight Topic on the subject. Entangling these two very divergent topics harms the credibility and reduces the impact of both of them.
For what it's worth:
I live outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania (hopefully everyone has at least a vague idea of where that is). Just a day or so before the Wyoming incident, I happened to see a news brief on the television that said a mother and daughter in the city had fended off an intruder with their sword collection. (In the words of the reporter, "the man quickly discovered that he'd chosen the wrong house to break into.") There was a brief clip of a policman tagging a longsword as evidence.
Frankly, I was delighted. Everyone I know looks at me askance when I start talking about swords, and it's easy to see the worry on their faces, the worry that I'm really a homicidal maniac plotting to buy a blade and start killing people. But this -- this was a time when swords had been put to good use!
Then I checked the forums here and found out about the Wyoming incident. Needless to say, my good mood vanished. What nervous people had feared would happen . . . happened. I felt almost guilty for being a sword enthusiast -- not to mention royally vexed at the perpetrator.
Much has been said about it, of course, but I feel compelled to add my two cents. Somebody here in the forums has a signature to the effect that, despite all the craftsmanship, art, and fine forms we give them, swords are weapons intended to kill. I never fail to feel a chill when perusing the reviews on this site. It can be easy to see a sword as a thing, or perhaps a work of art. Though many are works of art, one look at those points and edges conveys their real purpose.
It can be hard to explain a fascination with such dealers of death, to put it melodramatically, but such fascination obviously does not make us killers. As has been said, being sensible and responsible, and perhaps remembering a few guidelines, can help keep everyone safe.
Well, enough rambling. I'm off to bed, hoping that the Wyoming incidnet will be the only incident.
I live outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania (hopefully everyone has at least a vague idea of where that is). Just a day or so before the Wyoming incident, I happened to see a news brief on the television that said a mother and daughter in the city had fended off an intruder with their sword collection. (In the words of the reporter, "the man quickly discovered that he'd chosen the wrong house to break into.") There was a brief clip of a policman tagging a longsword as evidence.
Frankly, I was delighted. Everyone I know looks at me askance when I start talking about swords, and it's easy to see the worry on their faces, the worry that I'm really a homicidal maniac plotting to buy a blade and start killing people. But this -- this was a time when swords had been put to good use!
Then I checked the forums here and found out about the Wyoming incident. Needless to say, my good mood vanished. What nervous people had feared would happen . . . happened. I felt almost guilty for being a sword enthusiast -- not to mention royally vexed at the perpetrator.
Much has been said about it, of course, but I feel compelled to add my two cents. Somebody here in the forums has a signature to the effect that, despite all the craftsmanship, art, and fine forms we give them, swords are weapons intended to kill. I never fail to feel a chill when perusing the reviews on this site. It can be easy to see a sword as a thing, or perhaps a work of art. Though many are works of art, one look at those points and edges conveys their real purpose.
It can be hard to explain a fascination with such dealers of death, to put it melodramatically, but such fascination obviously does not make us killers. As has been said, being sensible and responsible, and perhaps remembering a few guidelines, can help keep everyone safe.
Well, enough rambling. I'm off to bed, hoping that the Wyoming incidnet will be the only incident.
The main thing with situations like this is simpley: Why is it the sword that was the focal point of the problem? What about the Alcohol, or family problems, or the indivivuals own mental state? But throw a sword or gun into the mix, and then everyone jumps up and down about the murder weapon. Society basicly shrugs off the huge portion of drunk driving murders every year, and domestic battery is "not our concern" for most people.. Its like yelling at the ashes of an arson site instead of catching the real cause of it. Society and intoxication are the true criminals in most all these cases... but thats too big a pie to eat all at once I guess, so they go after petty aspect of the crimes instead. If we actually held people acountable for their actions, we wouldn't need so many laws and regulations. Stick your finger in a light socket and its your own falt. I hope he gets the maximum, and they leave it at that.
I'm the original hijacker of this thread. Mea Culpa. Everybody, please respect Nathan's request to move the safety discussion.
| Alex Oster wrote: |
| The main thing with situations like this is simpley: Why is it the sword that was the focal point of the problem? What about the Alcohol, or family problems, or the indivivuals own mental state? But throw a sword or gun into the mix, and then everyone jumps up and down about the murder weapon. Society basicly shrugs off the huge portion of drunk driving murders every year, and domestic battery is "not our concern" for most people.. Its like yelling at the ashes of an arson site instead of catching the real cause of it. Society and intoxication are the true criminals in most all these cases... but thats too big a pie to eat all at once I guess, so they go after petty aspect of the crimes instead. If we actually held people acountable for their actions, we wouldn't need so many laws and regulations. Stick your finger in a light socket and its your own falt. I hope he gets the maximum, and they leave it at that. |
No one is talking about "sword control". The very notion would be ludicrous to American voters.
Furthermore, any attempt at a sword ban in the US would backfire, as it would give the gun lobbyists ammunition, tons of ammunition, with which to attack the ban mentality. Swords are not perceived as deadly weapons by the American public, but as toys and historical curios. If a politician tried to ban them because of an incident such as this, the gun lobyists would eat that politician for breakfast.
I think pushing a sword ban would be political suicide in most parts of the US.
| Nathan Keysor wrote: |
| What gets me heated when something like this happens is to imagine the hoards of lawyers looking for somebody to sue. The guy who committed the murder probably doesn't have much money so who could they go after? The company that made the sword would be a good target. Regardless of whether the litigation is succcessful the company will spend time and resources to defend itself and will be lucky not to be driven out of business. These expenses will be passed on to the consumer along with new safety regulations such as "swords must be sold unsharpened" for liability purposes. Furthermore, people who collect swords could be villified in the media for our "perverse obsession with weapons". There are plenty of countries where you need special licensing to own a sword and some cities here in the US that they can't be shipped to. That is why I bemoan any news story where the object used in the crime is more of a feature than the individual that perpatrated it. |
This happens because not too many people know the old answer the philosopher Plato gave to a similar problem more than two thousands year ago.
Once he was asked that if man would kill another unjustly by mean of a fighting art in which the killer would be trained, the blame could be put o the fighting art itself.
In such case, would the fighting training be considered bad?
Plato simply answered that it was clear that guilt stood not in the art, but in the subject that had made a bad use of it.
This kind of principle could help a lot judges in litigation cases in your country.
No sword company could be reasonable made guilt for the misuse of ne of their weapons, no more than gun companies are held liable for bank robberies ...
| Bruno Giordan wrote: | ||
This happens because not too many people know the old answer the philosopher Plato gave to a similar problem more than two thousands year ago. Once he was asked that if man would kill another unjustly by mean of a fighting art in which the killer would be trained, the blame could be put o the fighting art itself. In such case, would the fighting training be considered bad? Plato simply answered that it was clear that guilt stood not in the art, but in the subject that had made a bad use of it. This kind of principle could help a lot judges in litigation cases in your country. No sword company could be reasonable made guilt for the misuse of ne of their weapons, no more than gun companies are held liable for bank robberies ... |
I agree with you Bruno. Unfortunately we have around 80% of the worlds lawyers here and ridiculous lawsuits are commonplace. As a matter of fact gun companies have been sued over the misuse of their products. It therefore seems quite possible to me that a smaller sword manufacturer, without as much legal muscle, could fall victim to this predatory practice. I agree that none of us here on this forum would give this any credence but we wouldn't be on the jury (that would surely be stocked with mouth breathers)
| Michael Edelson wrote: |
|
No one is talking about "sword control". The very notion would be ludicrous to American voters. Furthermore, any attempt at a sword ban in the US would backfire, as it would give the gun lobbyists ammunition, tons of ammunition, with which to attack the ban mentality. Swords are not perceived as deadly weapons by the American public, but as toys and historical curios. If a politician tried to ban them because of an incident such as this, the gun lobyists would eat that politician for breakfast. I think pushing a sword ban would be political suicide in most parts of the US. |
I never said anything about "sword control", so please don't mis quote me. I was refering to societies take on these kinds of situations.
| Nathan Keysor wrote: | ||||
I agree with you Bruno. Unfortunately we have around 80% of the worlds lawyers here and ridiculous lawsuits are commonplace. As a matter of fact gun companies have been sued over the misuse of their products. It therefore seems quite possible to me that a smaller sword manufacturer, without as much legal muscle, could fall victim to this predatory practice. I agree that none of us here on this forum would give this any credence but we wouldn't be on the jury (that would surely be stocked with mouth breathers) |
It is a pity that after millennia of phylosophical progress certain questions be still in need to be discussed again.
I may re-confirm that in italy despite all the bans on weapons we have (it is difficult to get a firearmy carrying license even for people menaced seriously by criminals) , many crimes are committed daily, and with any sort of improvised weapon.
I still recall with horror the case of that deranged mother that killed her baby putting him inside a laundry machine.
| Alex Oster wrote: | ||
I never said anything about "sword control", so please don't mis quote me. I was refering to societies take on these kinds of situations. |
My apologies, but your post seemed to imply that you were concerned about sword control. After all, society's take on these kinds of situations in relation to other things, such as firearms, most always lead to an outcry for control or outright bans. Also, quotes are not always used for quoting people, but often to indicate words used ironically, with reservations, or in some unusual way. They can also be used when naming something. Since there is no such thing as sword control, I used quotes to name a concept.
no worries, It was a late night post. My intent was to point out that what makes the headlines is how it was a sword, or a gun, or an apathetic drunk driver, yet no one looks further than that. My buddy got attacked by a crack head weilding a spear a few months ago, and all they news could talk about was the weapon. They breifly mentioned the rest of the story, but was mezmerized over the "spear attacker". They didn't point out my buddies cat like reflexes that saved his llfe, or much about the crackhead past attacks.
Long and short of it: My freinds a barista in one of those drive up carbord box like coffe stands that are about 6'x6'. The crazy guy tried to use the spear togain the reach neededto impale my freind in the box. Overall my buddy recieved about four surface scratches (like a cat scratch) and multiple cuts to his clothes, but was able to dode all the thrusts before grabing the chemical mace and hosing the guy while some onlookers tackled him. Apparently the dude came at him while his back was turned, and "I caught a sense of movement behind me, and as I turned the spear went right past my kidney; grazing instead of sticking right in." Apparently after numerous thrusts, the guy only then demanded money. Then got hosed.
Long and short of it: My freinds a barista in one of those drive up carbord box like coffe stands that are about 6'x6'. The crazy guy tried to use the spear togain the reach neededto impale my freind in the box. Overall my buddy recieved about four surface scratches (like a cat scratch) and multiple cuts to his clothes, but was able to dode all the thrusts before grabing the chemical mace and hosing the guy while some onlookers tackled him. Apparently the dude came at him while his back was turned, and "I caught a sense of movement behind me, and as I turned the spear went right past my kidney; grazing instead of sticking right in." Apparently after numerous thrusts, the guy only then demanded money. Then got hosed.
The guidelines should be simple:
1.) Treat every sword as if it's loaded (because it effectively is).
2.) Never point it at anything which you do not wish to destroy.
Exceptions made for "blank-only" swords intended for mock combat, which have blunt points and edges.
Cheers,
Gordon
1.) Treat every sword as if it's loaded (because it effectively is).
2.) Never point it at anything which you do not wish to destroy.
Exceptions made for "blank-only" swords intended for mock combat, which have blunt points and edges.
Cheers,
Gordon
Page 2 of 3
You cannot post new topics in this forumYou cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
All contents © Copyright 2003-2006 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Full-featured Version of the forum
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Full-featured Version of the forum