[Lee O'Hagan]

The Lane's Armoury have a smallsword listed on their site,listed as,
18th century steel smallsword rapier,
The description says to make this sword today would be in excess of £80.000 but it's for sale at £1200,
Would people who know antiques say this is sales talk or would it be a case of some of the smiths today not really charging what they should be as from seeing some of the pics posted of work by vince evans and erik stevenson i'm guessing these and a few others could make a similar piece,
There is mention of quite a bit of gold in the hilt and in todays market i could not hazard a guess how much more this would add,
But i am curious to know from someone better informed on this style of sword,

[Thomas McDonald]

Hi Lee

Do you have a link to their site ?

Mac

[Craig Johnson]

I would be interested in a pic as well, I might consider making you one no matter what it looks like for £80,000:-)

Craig

PS My guesss is they are basing that price on what a highend piece in period would be equivalent to in today £

[Roger Hooper]

For that price, the hilt must have been encrusted with jewels, and the blade etched to a fare-thee-well.

[Lee O'Hagan]

Hey all,
www.thelanesarmoury.co.uk
Summer new addition's page,
Some very nice stuff,
So far i've tried to post a pic but cant seem to get it to work,but i'm guessing that's me,

[Thomas McDonald]

It's a beautiful piece , and no doubt worth the 1200 pounds .....
But I'll bet Vince Evans would reproduce it for a considerable less sum than 80,000 pounds !

How about I work the deal with Vince, for you Lee ... say he gets 50,000. GBP , and I take a measly 10,000 for my
negotiation work *g* ;-) Mac ( that'll save ya 20,000 GBP right off the top ;-)

But if ya'd rather just buy the antique ...... ;-) Mac








A TRULY SUPERB
18TH CENTURY
STEEL
SMALL SWORD
RAPIER

EMBELLISHED WITH PURE GOLD.

IT HAS A WONDROUSLY CHISELLED STEEL HILT
INCLUDING A PIERCED KNUCKELBOW DECORATED
WITH A STAND OF ARMS,
AN OVOID POMMEL DECORATED WITH ROCOCO SWIRLS,
A DOUBLE SHELL GUARD EXQUISITELY CHISELLED
WITH PANELS OF ROSE BUSHES, SURROUNDED BY
AROUND 600 INDIVIDUAL PURE GOLD STARS SET IN
A CRISS CROSS DESIGN [AROUND THE ROSE PANELS]
WITHIN THE STEEL SHELLS.

THE TREFOIL BLADE IS DELICATELY ENGRAVED
WITH A FLORID DESIGN FOR AROUND A THIRD OF IT'S LENGTH.

IT HAS WHAT APPEARS TO BE ORIGINAL GRIP BINDING
OF A VERY SIMPLE FORM,
BUT ON MAGNIFIED EXAMINATION
IT IS HIGHLY COMPLEX AND UNUSUAL.
IT IS TWIST BOUND WITH A FINE CORD,
AND THE CORD HAS BEEN
OVER-WRAPPED IN THE THINNEST, BEATEN,
AND FLATTENED COPPER WIRE
[ONLY VISIBLE WITH A X10 MAGNIFYING GLASS].

A SWORD OF THIS QUALITY WAS MOST LIKELY
COMMISSIONED FOR
A NOBLEMAN OR PRINCE BUT CERTAINLY SOMEONE
OF IMMENSE WEALTH AND POSITION

CRAFTSMANSHIP OF IT'S LIKE IS ONLY EQUALLED
TODAY BY THE FINEST OF ENGLISH BESPOKE GUNSMITHS
AND IT WOULD PROBABLY COST IN EXCESS
OF £80,000 TO PRODUCE TODAY.

£1200

[Lee O'Hagan]

Thank's Mac,
Appreciate it,
I'm guessing you spied the baskethilts too,
Craig, One day mate but hopefully a tad cheaper ,
Hi Roger, i'm thinking more jewel's and the like for that price but Craig's probably right on the comparison of cost then as to now,

[Thomas McDonald]

[Lee O'Hagan]

No you pretty much nailed it,
I'm not sure if there were a few more baskethilts on the sold section
After seeing it,
material's aside could the smiths of today do a similar piece,
Not that i'm shopping for one but my initial guesstimate was 2-5k (gold aside)
Just caught the other bit,
No if i ever manage to order from Vince i think it would be the irish basket hilt you posted a pic of or a pappenheimer,

[Stephen A. Fisher]

Yep, That's a nice one. I'm very fond of their English silver-hilted smallsword w/colichemarde blade. It would be mine if I only had £1200 to spare. Or have £1200 period.

http://www.armsandarmour.co.uk/otheredgedweapongallery5.htm

Here is an example of a smallsword which is similar in features to the one being discussed.

[Stephen A. Fisher]

On a similar note. I recently came across this example of a smallsword decorated in the rococo fasion inlaid with gold for only $390. I have dated with what resources I have to be circa 1720-30's. Though it could be a bit eariler or later.

Hilt is decorated with birds, shells & foilage, & remains of the gold hightlighting.

Overall Length: 38 14/16"
Blade Length: 32" of triangular cross section (panel of etching on both sides)
Blade Width: 14/16"
Weight: 13oz
P.O.B.: 2 1/2" from shell

[Thomas McDonald]

[Stephen A. Fisher]

...

[Stephen A. Fisher]

....

[Stephen A. Fisher]

Lee,

I apologize for hijacking your thread and going off on my usual smallsword rant.

[John Piscopo]

Dear Lee & Friends,

I have over a hundred smallswords in my collection: French, German, English, Italian, Spanish, Swedish and Dutch. I have one example of one manufactured in China. I have all of the literature available and would be happy to assist anyone needing an opinion.

There are no gold hilted swords. Gold or silver gilding was applied to brass hilts, knucklebows, pommels and scabbard fittings in a process known as fire gilding. Expendible children were employed as gilders because this was a very dangerous occupation with a short lifespan. Gold or silver were dissolved in mercury, the mercury with gold or silver in solution was then applied to the polished brass, and in some cases silver or steel, and then the mercury was evaporated from the surface leaving the gold which was then polished. This was a dangerous occupation because the gilder would use a blowpipe to direct a high temperature flame at the metal, converting the liquid mercury to a gas. Needless to say this was done at very close quarters and the mercury vapors would be inhaled by the gilder. Few would last more than a few years. The master swordsmiths knew how lethal the mercury vapors were and took care not to be around for more than a training session or two. Apprentices would supervise the children hired for these tasks. A gruesome part of sword manufacturing history.

The practice of fire gilding continued until the process of electrolysis was invented and adapted for gold plating. The Romans invented the process in order to make base metal coins look like silver coins.

There are distinctly different blade styles used for smallswords with edgeless Epee and Colichmarde swords that were stiff and for thrusting while fencing being the most popular during the 18th Century throughout Europe. There were also hexagonal, lens and diamond cross sections that may have had sharpened edges and could have been used as both cut and thrust weapons. These swords were carried by Gentlemen at Court and for street use and military and civilian officials as signs of office. Blades were often engraved and incribed, decorated with geometric or floral motifs and embellished with bluing and gold to accentuate designs.

French Officers carried smallsword epees with helmeted pommels and boat or heart shaped guards rather than the shells, the style became popular and subsequently adopted by the Germans, British and Scandanavians. These swords often had single edged blades with a spine and fuller for use as both a cutting and thrusting weapon

They were even painted black for formal dress at funerals and called mortuary swords.

Most of these swords had pommels of various styles and had knucklebows and shell guards. The pas d'an was another common feature that came from its rapier origins. Originally in the 1730s they were large enough to insert the swordman's fingers in for a tighter grip. I have solid brass as well as wire wrapped grips but tortoise shell, ceramics, tropical woods, stone, ivory and bone can be found as material used for grips.

I have a small collection of smallswords that do not have knuckle bows and have what I call loopguards instead of shell guards. The loopguard would only be on one side of the blade.

Naval officers carried swords as sidearms on ships both as symbols of authority and as personal weapons. Their preferred styles were hunting swords with robust blades and shortbladed smallswords as fencing blades. The passageways of ships in the 18th Century did not allow for long bladed weapons.

I have seen no examples of extra long blades that would have been used by cavalry officers.

A rare variant is a left handed sword, I only have one of them.

If anyone would like to see pictures of any particular style, I have examples of almost all of them, please send me an email at jpisc98357@aol.com or I will take a picture and post it to this thread. I do not display them by themselves but have them with national collections: French, German, British are the largest numbers.

[John Piscopo]

Dear Friends,

I forgot to mention, while most of the wire wraps of the grips are copper, bronze, brass or combination of the three, silver and gold wire were also used, gold usually being used by the high nobility and royalty. I have no real statistics but I would estimate that of wire wrapped grips with turkhead braid at top and bottom that 90% were copper or copper alloy and 9+% silver hilt and wire wrap. That does not leave many with gold wire. I do not have any with gold wire.

Would anyone want to see a bibliography on the study of small and court swords?