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Anders Nilsson




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PostPosted: Fri 15 Jun, 2007 4:04 am    Post subject: Frogface Bascinet         Reply with quote

Hello

I have found several sellers that sell whatīs called a "Frogface Bascinet". I have never seen that type of helmet before. Anyone that knows were they where used and when?
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Ivo Malz




Location: Hanau, Germany
Joined: 08 Jan 2005

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PostPosted: Fri 15 Jun, 2007 6:00 am    Post subject: Re: Frogface Bascinet         Reply with quote

Anders Nilsson wrote:
Hello

I have found several sellers that sell whatīs called a "Frogface Bascinet". I have never seen that type of helmet before. Anyone that knows were they where used and when?


Iīd guess they wanted to say "dog- faced", i.e. hounskull.

Regards

Ivo
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Fri 15 Jun, 2007 6:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Agreed. Do a search on the term "hounskull" on this forum and you'll find many photographs and illustrations of the type.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 15 Jun, 2007 6:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You can also check this out: http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spot_bascinet.html
Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Anders Nilsson




Location: Sweden
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PostPosted: Fri 15 Jun, 2007 8:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Itīs not a houndskull or a pigface or a clappvisir, its called a frogface.
I Have never seen ite before, and now it has popped up several times on the net.

I have a link here but itīs to a Swedish site so Iīll give you a quick guide.

http://medlem.spray.se/riddarsmide/

Click on "Hjälmar" then itīs helmet nr 106
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John H





Joined: 08 May 2006

Posts: 60

PostPosted: Fri 15 Jun, 2007 9:03 am    Post subject: My thoughts         Reply with quote

I have always hear "frog-faced" used in connection with jousting helmets. A style of jousting great helms have an occularium that looks sort of like a frog's mouth.
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Jeffrey Hedgecock
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Location: Ramona CA USA
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PostPosted: Fri 15 Jun, 2007 11:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think you could be referring to a Frogmouth Great Bascinet.

There is an example in Churburg and a similar example in the Metropolitan, but it's never been published.

I made one in collaboration with Per Jensen a few years back, which I have jousted in for almost two years now. We believe it is a plausible recreation of a helmet that could of existed, though it is not a copy of any single particular original.

http://www.historicenterprises.com/cart.php?m...&c=150

What we did was combine the skull shape of the Frederick the Victorious great bascinet with the front throat & neck plates and visor of the Churburg helmet. The result is pretty cool I think. And it's great to joust in too! Big Grin

(edited to add the following picture of jousting in my helmet)


Cheers,

Jeffrey Hedgecock
Historic Enterprises, Inc.
WorldJoust Tournaments™


Last edited by Jeffrey Hedgecock on Fri 15 Jun, 2007 3:59 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Anders Nilsson




Location: Sweden
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PostPosted: Fri 15 Jun, 2007 12:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are more pictures.

http://medlem.spray.se/riddarsmide/Img1/Helmet9_4.JPG

http://medlem.spray.se/riddarsmide/Img1/Helmet9_5.JPG

http://medlem.spray.se/riddarsmide/Img1/Helmet9_6.JPG

http://medlem.spray.se/riddarsmide/Img1/Helmet9_7.JPG
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Hisham Gaballa





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PostPosted: Fri 15 Jun, 2007 3:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think it's a reference to this type of helmet:


 Attachment: 122.11 KB
Great_Bascinet_1450-55.02.jpg
(Picture scanned from "The Complete Encyclopedia of Arms and Weapons", edited by Leonid Tarassuk and Claude Blair.)
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Jeffrey Hedgecock
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Location: Ramona CA USA
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PostPosted: Fri 15 Jun, 2007 3:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anders,

Is that helmet based on a surviving historical example? I'm aware of a strongly peaked Barbuta with a pseudo frogmouth type side pivoted visor (in Paris), but what you've presented seems more of a c 1370 helmet bowl with what looks like a rather inappropriate visor stuck on. Based on the skull's shape, I would expect it to be more appropriately fitted with a klappvisier similar to the example in Zürich. Is the visor just an invention of the modern armourer?

If it is indeed based on a survival, I'd be very interested to know which piece, if you'd care to share that with us?

Cheers,

Jeffrey Hedgecock
Historic Enterprises, Inc.
WorldJoust Tournaments™
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 15 Jun, 2007 4:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree with Jeffrey that it's probably a combination of things which may not go together.

Here are two more pics of the Churburg great bascinet.



 Attachment: 36.72 KB
GreatBascinet-2.jpg


 Attachment: 35.74 KB
GreatBascinet-3.jpg


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ChadA

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Anders Nilsson




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PostPosted: Fri 15 Jun, 2007 11:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Iīm trying to find out if itīs based on any surviving helmets or any painting or statue. I havénīt found any helmet that looks like it. Iīm starting to think itīs from the imagination of the smith. He states that itīs from ca 1370 thou.
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Sat 16 Jun, 2007 5:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are similar dipiction of bascinets with interesting visors from pre1350. The Hastings Effigy for one and then the Taymouth hours has a few as well. I think the ones these seem to illustrate are closer fit to the face but might be worth a short look on the British Library onlines Manuscripts. I love this picture!

RPM



 Attachment: 98.61 KB
Knight, lions f.12mini.jpg

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Merv Cannon




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PostPosted: Sat 16 Jun, 2007 7:41 am    Post subject: ''Frog'' mouth visor         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
There are similar dipiction of bascinets with interesting visors from pre1350. The Hastings Effigy for one and then the Taymouth hours has a few as well. I think the ones these seem to illustrate are closer fit to the face but might be worth a short look on the British Library onlines Manuscripts. I love this picture!

RPM


I agree with Randall..... Its a relatively common visor for Bascinets (throughout the 14th C. in fact ) They appear in manuscripts quite commonly. Several of our groups combatants have reproduced them and wear this type of bascinet visor. I tried to find some photos but its after midnight here and I think they are burried on a CD.
I call this type of Visor " the Snowplow "....but thats just my silly name for them......I dont think they have a proper (modern) name. Several companies have reproduced them including the fabulous "Best Armour " in Czechoslovakia whos examples, I believe, are taken from items in storage at the main Czech museum, where the owner of "Best Armour" used to work ! See examples here....... http://www.bestarmour.com/slap4.htm .....down the page a bit.

Cheers !

Merv ....... KOLR
http://www.lionrampant.com.au/

"Then let slip the dogs of war ! "......Woof !
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Jeffrey Hedgecock
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PostPosted: Sat 16 Jun, 2007 7:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cool pictures, yes. But that visor doesn't look even a little bit "frog mouthed".

Looks like a typical lifting visor sugarloaf greathelm.

Cheers,

Jeffrey Hedgecock
Historic Enterprises, Inc.
WorldJoust Tournaments™
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Anders Nilsson




Location: Sweden
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PostPosted: Sat 16 Jun, 2007 11:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So what do you guys say. Is it a reproduction of a actual helmet or is it a fantasy? I thinkt it looks great and was thinking of buying one, if itīs (Somewhat) historical accurate.
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Hisham Gaballa





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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2007 12:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would say that if it looks like the Churburg frog-faced great bascinet then it's reasonably accurate.
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Anders Nilsson




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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2007 3:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Then I will get my hands on one. I will tell you what I think of it when I have tried it.
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2007 8:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anders,

The way I interpret the visors on the early bascinets is that the top that overlaps the skull would remain closer to it instead of protruding out as that reproduction does. If you really wanted it though I'd see if it might have a less abrupt transition to the visor and the bascinet skull. The profile looks good to my eyes except for that. Looks like a step to me for some reason.

RPM
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Mick Czerep




Location: Poland
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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2007 9:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have some serious doubts as to the Czech helmets shown in the gallery. Most of them seem to have wrong proportions - quite a few look like helmets I've seen in museums or reproduced by Per Lillelund Jensen, just not so nice and proportioned. I do take into account a fewq absolute genuine uglies I've seen as well. These photos include the 'grille' bascinet, a great favourite of SCA events, rattan whacing, for the use of.

As to the helmet under discussion I think we still do not know enough about and haven't seen enough of originals, for many reasons. Not that many examples survived in general. Myself, I'dstick to some 'certain' design first, then go for things risky.

Cheers
Mick

Sordes ocurrit
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