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Robin Smith
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 Posted: Sat 09 Jun, 2007 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: | The bottom line is that none of us are participating in real medieval combat. Not one of us.  There are many schools of thought on how to recreate something that simulates it (which is all we can do), and we don't have to agree on how that's done. There may be more than one right way to go about it and there are certainly more than one wrong way to go about it. In the end of the day, does it matter? We all are in this hobby (and that's all it is) for different reasons and some like to seek their own path of rediscovering ancient arts.
This thread has evolved into trashing someone's school of thought/way of doing things. I don't like that.
Feel free to point out what you don't like about this person and how they do things in a civil and professional tone then move on. Ganging up to criticize someone who's not defending themselves by participating here is not what we're looking to do on this site.
Talk about these other issues, disagree with that group's methodology, and point out their misstatements all you want. But do it without the condescension; be civil, please.
Come on guys, I know you know this isn't how we do things here. Please help keep your moderators' hair from graying prematurely. |
Thank you Chad. I was just about to say something along these lines, albeit much less diplomaticly. Looking at it from the reenactors POV, and not a HEMA practicioner, I gotta say it sometimes sounds like some groups think they hold the monopoly on "real" sword fighting. I'm sorry, but no one here has been in a "real" sword fight. You may have read a book by some old guys who were in real sword fights, but that doesn't make you a sword fighter anymore than reading a book by Neil Armstrong makes you an astronaut. It's all a simulation, and its all done in fun. I know saying this isn't gonna win me any friends. Lighten up guys. Everyone has there own way of connecting with history, and ain't no one here curing cancer...
A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sat 09 Jun, 2007 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Robin Smith wrote: |
I know saying this isn't gonna win me any friends. Lighten up guys. Everyone has there own way of connecting with history, and ain't no one here curing cancer... |
Amen. You can count me as a friend in case you lose some.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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David Sutton
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| Posted: Sat 09 Jun, 2007 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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Chad, I think you are right, this thread could easily become a free for all, criticising someone who has, I think, made a bit of a foolish statement and as you state, is not here to defend himself. I've held off replying to this thread a couple of times mainly because I've never been a re-enactor or taken part in any kind of historical sword training (something I hope to rectify ASAP) and so didnt want to come across as some kind of 'know-it-all'. The other reason was, every time I began to write a post it always ended up sounding snide and scoffing so I had to stop and think about what I wanted to say. Ill be honest, making remarks such as this chap has irritates me quite a bit, and I could go on for ages why. But I think what troubles me the most is the impression that this kind of display gives the general public; that European medieval combat was without any kind of skill or technique, just a matter of bashing about. Now I'm not in any way knocking re-enactors here, I think what the vast majority of them do is brilliant, besides how would you get a recreation of the battle of Hastings or Bosworth etc without them? All those that I have spoken to were 100% committed to getting as close as they could to a practical authenticity of the periods they portrayed. But I don't think any of them would say that they knew 100% that they were correct in their recreations.
Now I don't want to rubbish any of the experience this fellow has gained, getting bashed in a suit of armour must at some point bear a resemblance to medieval combat. But its not the be all and end all.
Colin, I think the best way to approach this might be to invite him to take a look at this website and the forums attached to it. Invite him to sign up and have a discussion with some of the contributors and put his point of view forward (perhaps Chad or one of the moderators would like to chime in here, I don't want to sound presumptuous about inviting people on to the site when I'm only a minor contributor myself). If he ignores your invite or is dismissive of the wealth of knowledge and experience on here then so be it, you tried your best and probably nothing will change his point of view. If he continues to make silly comments then just continue to lay down the challenge of putting them up for discussion on here. Who knows, he might be grateful he found this site which I like to think is not only a gold mine of info, but is fun, friendly and accessible, I'm sure everybody would give him a warm and friendly welcome.
Well thats my 'two pence worth' on the subject I think we can only wait and see how this plays out.
'Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all'
'To teach superstitions as truth is a most terrible thing'
Hypatia of Alexandria, c400AD
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sat 09 Jun, 2007 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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I'm both Chad and a Moderator, so I'll chime in (BTW, Nathan and I are the only moderators). Anyone who can abide by our simple Rules of Conduct and wants to contribute to healthy discourse is welcome. I will say, though, that if I were him I'd feel a little awkward coming into a situation where I'd been called ridiculous a few times essentially behind my back. If he's willing to play nice and so is everyone else, I say the more the merrier.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Sat 09 Jun, 2007 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Bob Burns wrote: |
Therefore, not even the UFC can simulate the brutal reality of a street fight, |
It can't simulate it per se, of course not. But it can train you in a large percentage of the skills you would and will need in an actual street fight. UFC training is very useful for a real fight, a lot of the eye-gouging, head butting, etc., not to mention things like flicking lit cigarettes in peoples eyes, kicking bar stools out from under them, smashing peoples heads against posts, and walls, and sidewalks etc., can easily be added to something like an MMA repetorie.
I don't have any black belts. In anything. But I have a very long background in shall we say, unconventional street encounters. I'm not proud of it, but it's a fact. Not every person you come up against on the street is a super ninja. Not all fighting tricks are complicated or subtle. One of the things I learned in the old days, from watching quite a few fights take place, was that some martial arts were way more useful than others. Tons of guys knew, or at least claimed they knew some kind of karate or kung fu or something, and 9 times out of 10 they ended up hurt really badly. Every once in a while there was some guy was really good at it AND had the instincts, timing, experience etc. to be a good streetfighter. I personally found that boxers, guys who did golden gloves or something similar, did better, and wrestlers, people who had wrestled in high school or (especially) college, often did really, really well. I would try to avoid a fight with a guy if I knew he was a wrestler.
I was not at all surprised in the early days of UFC how the grapplers and BJJ guys seemed to be so dominant. Things have balanced out now partially due to some of the new rules and restrictions, but I think there are two reasons why those guys did so well; they sparred a lot, and they learned skills which were useful when combat went to close quarters, as it so often will in an unarmed fight. (How all that works in a group fight situation, well the dynamic changes...)
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anymore than could the most brutal form of armed combat with blunt swords, shields, etc., simulate the reality of a medieval battle to the death! |
Nobody is saying it simulates battle to the death.
But I have been in a couple of street encounters for real, where I had to use a stick to defend myself from somebody trying to hurt me. My training saved me from a trip to the hospital or maybe even the morgue, and I have no doubt about it; training and the habit of fighting amateurs, (which taught me what untrained people tend to do when trying to say, hit you with a steel pipe) is what made the difference between a tragic life-changing experience and just another minor street scuffle with a happy ending.
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Which again comes to my question. How can this person or anyone remotely think they are engaging in the real combat level and style of the medieval battlefield? Absolutely Ridiculous! |
We can boil it down to the basics. The people who lived when knowing how to fence was very much a matter of life and death, trained a certain way to prepare themselves for fighting for their lives. We know a lot of how they trained because they happened to write it down back when people were still killing each other all the time in judicial combats and duels. Thats probably the most important difference between HEMA and EMA, the fechtbuchs are a direct window into this lethal time. They are literally the voice of trained killers, telling you how to kill.
My theory is, if you train with the techniques and equipment that the Masters reccomend, and test yourself regularly with as realistic as possible sparring, you may learn something about how to fight with a sword.
It's also worth pointing out that most of the larger HEMA groups reccomend something called 'triangulation', meaning you train with a variety of different types of gear: steel blunts for drill and free-play, (like the types they used in the period) hardwood wasters (also used in period) also for drill and free-play, shinai, nylon wasters, flex steel rapiers, padded wasters, etc. for full-contact, and sharps for test-cutting. This helps get you very close to the point that you will learn enough that you may be able to make the jump into what it means to be in a real sword fight with your life at stake.
It's essentially how all military training works. No boot camp in the world really makes you understand combat, all it does is it increaces the odds that you will be able to adapt and function with some efficiency in the s---t.
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Sat 09 Jun, 2007 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: | Feel free to point out what you don't like about this person and how they do things in a civil and professional tone then move on. Ganging up to criticize someone who's not defending themselves by participating here is not what we're looking to do on this site.
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I got an email reply from those guys and they seem friendly. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they ended up getting into HEMA.
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Sat 09 Jun, 2007 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| David Sutton wrote: | | But I think what troubles me the most is the impression that this kind of display gives the general public; that European medieval combat was without any kind of skill or technique, just a matter of bashing about. |
Same here, thats why I wanted to chime in too. I like re-enactors, I admire what they do, I think it's hugely helpful for HEMA to have this body of knowledge out there, particulary on getting kit right. In fact as I said I believe there should and can be much more synchronicity between HEMA fighters and re-enactors, (and historians and collectors and all sorts of other interested parties)
When the guy says his home-made fighting system is as good as anything that can be or is being reconstructed from the Renaissance manuals, that is exactly one of the incorrect concepts which I really think it's irresponsible not to challenge. Thats why I spoke up. I don't think the guy said it out of malice, and I think when he learns more about HEMA as I hope he does, he will contribute a lot of useful energy and insight into our collective efforts to understand Historical Martial Arts.
Jean
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Stephen Hand
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| Posted: Sat 09 Jun, 2007 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | | I don't think the guy said it out of malice |
As one of the founders of the group that he was trying to bignote himself by claiming to have beaten I beg to differ. I see more than a little malice in his statements, especially now that Colin has sent me the unexpurgated version. I also doubt that he or people like him will make any sort of contribution to our understanding of historical martial arts. As a re-enactor for 28 years I have never seen remotely like the hostility towards new information that I see with the martial arts. This is a community that normally welcomes new information about what people did, but the resistance and downright hostility to western martial arts is extraordinary. The variety of "dog ate my homework" style arguments as to why the historical source material isn't valid is mind boggling. I've calmly said to people that all re-enactors make compromises, that just as some people aren't keen enough to hand sew clothing, so some people won't be keen enough to learn WMA and that's fine as long as they're honest about it. But it falls on deaf ears. I still get the arguments of "you can't do it", "it isn't safe", "you can't fight 100% accurately so why bother" (oh, ok, then let's make tunics out of hot pink lycra then because we can't get the exact weave dye and stitching they did), "most of them didn't fight like the manuals" (so they fought like a bunch of guys who've never seen a real swordfight let alone been in one instead?) etc.
It's rather soul destroying to be at the forefront of research that's revealing real solid information about the most popular activity in re-enactment only to be told that it's not relevant. I guess that's why I do very little re-enactment these days and concentrate on my fencing school.
Cheers
Stephen
Stephen Hand
Editor, Spada, Spada II
Author of English Swordsmanship, Medieval Sword and Shield
Stoccata School of Defence
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Sat 09 Jun, 2007 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen Hand wrote: | | Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | | I don't think the guy said it out of malice |
As one of the founders of the group that he was trying to bignote himself by claiming to have beaten I beg to differ.
It's rather soul destroying to be at the forefront of research that's revealing real solid information about the most popular activity in re-enactment only to be told that it's not relevant. I guess that's why I do very little re-enactment these days and concentrate on my fencing school.
Cheers
Stephen |
I hear where you are coming from Stephen, and I understand completely. I think though that part of the problem has been more heat than light in some of the interractions between re-enactors and WMA / HEMA people on both sides of the fence. I'm not talking about you necessarily either, there are plenty of shrill voices out there as we both know. I sent this guy that challenge and he seemed to recieve it well, I think that kind of approach may work better. I believe as you do vis a vis fencing and the arts you are studying, and writing in etc. Being right isn't always the key to convincing people of anything, due to human nature it often also requires some diplomacy, and even a little humility. I say this only from my own experience, because I myself have often been arrogant and strident sounding in some of my discussions on this subject. I'm now convinced it's better to go in a different direction. For that matter the vicious acrimony which has existed in some parts of the HEMA community have been very counter-productive.
I know it's easy for me to say, but I reccomend you not only forgive this guy, but reach a (gauntleted) hand out to him, you might find he can make a positive contribution after all.
But I really don't know for sure. All I know is I'm tired of bickering, I'll present the best information I can, and people can take it or leave it. Those who reach out back to me will find me cooperative and willing to share ideas, as for the rest, I'll just continue to study, drill, and spar with or without them.
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Bob Burns
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| Posted: Mon 11 Jun, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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All very true Jean! While 8 months of my training was UFC type fighting before I went into straight karate, but the type of karate I trained in was for the reality of the street. Such as How to destroy an opponent with the headlight of a car or a fire hydrant, eye and throat gouging etc. Was a very vicious style!
The common place sport karate taught these days will only get a person half killed!
Robin, no offense taken here, I was only making a point which "some" people are not aware of, I saw this with new students in the dojo of a different school that I trained in, they thought those hi fancy kicks would make them great in the street. LOL! Never kick above the waist or kidney level on the street unless you want to land on your head! A foot up in the air to a grappler is a gift!
I was majorly bummed when I had to quit because of the arthritis, fortunately I found European Swords at the Arms & Armor store at the Bristol Faire. This hobby is a passion to me even more than was martial arts! My "Hey Day"
is Over! I have this health issue because I tried to be 25 for too many years.
Now, I just want to enjoy life, this hobby, do a lot of reading and practice with my swords. My orthopedic surgeon told me that practicing non impact with my swords would be excellent therapy for me. Well, I can't go a day without picking up one of my swords and like Chad said, I am in it for the Fun!
Sincerely,
Bob
Attached is a really nice picture of Keith Hackney and myself from a few years ago.
 Attachment: 41.89 KB
[ Download ]
Last edited by Bob Burns on Wed 13 Jun, 2007 11:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Bob Burns
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| Posted: Mon 11 Jun, 2007 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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To clarify myself, I have nothing but the utmost respect and reverence for the swordsmanship instructors, authors and the well experienced reenactors! I have no doubt that practioners at this level would be a fearsome foe even in the day of the medieval battlefield 
What I was addressing were "some" people of beginner and intermediate level experience who might think the reenactor level was more than it actually is in reality, utilizing "some" karate practitioners of a beginner or intermediate level as an illustration. Because karate is what I know, as stated, I am no swordsman, I am a beginner and a greenhorn with a whole lot of passion to learn!
I just wanted to make sure that I was not missunderstood and therefore offended somebody, that was not at all my agenda
Most Sincerely!
Bob
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Robin Smith
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| Posted: Mon 11 Jun, 2007 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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I personally don't know any reenactors who think what they are doing is "deadly". We all want to go home with all our arms and legs, so of course it is not deadly. Thats the catch. Period swordmanship is designed to maim or kill. Reenactors like staying alive. See the problem? Of course it's designed for show. Thats the whole point of a reenactment. To put on a big historical show. No one I know thinks that they had target limits in period. But its done because of safety reasons. Same reason they don't point the muskets in Civil War reenactment, but I don't hear complaints that aiming over the opposing line is martially unsound.
Sorry if I am sounding testy.
A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Bob Burns
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| Posted: Mon 11 Jun, 2007 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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No offense taken at all Robin! I think what the Reenactors are doing is fantastic and it's something that personally interests me. Which is part of the reason I paid the $429.00 for the real steel rivetted hauberk from Windlass at
Kult of Athena, also bought a gambeson too. That perhaps someday maybe I will get involved myself, however for the meantime I bought these things as advised by Patrick Kelly, so as to get some of the spiritual reality feel of the day when practicing with my swords.
Perhaps No one thinks they are close to reality medieval combat in the reenactors arena? I was just making an anology of things, because like I said, I have come across many guys in the years I studied karate at a few different schools who thought if they did these flashy kicks or choreographed self defense techniques on the street that they would be awesomely practical. Although nobody at Hackney's Combat had that idea of course! 
Sincerely!
Bob
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 11 Jun, 2007 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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The original question was about historical accuracy but as far as recreating fighting styles or learning martial arts it's obvious that safety has to come first but the attempts to get as close as possible is the ideal.
The only way to get very much closer to reality might be possible with a Star Trek hollodeck or something maybe a little less ambitious like a computer game/program giving full sensory feedback but where the " cut-in-half " loser of a bout would be the computer avatar and any risk to the real people would be zero when using full speed and no restrictions on targets or lethal techniques. ( a supplement not a replacement to present training methods ? ).
Still, there would remain the fact that the absence of real danger to life or limb makes suicidal or imprudent attacks cost free and changes the dynamics of timing and risk taking making it still different from a real survival situation: If I was facing a real and sharp sword I might move or not move very differently; Consider seriously running away or might unfortunately freeze up ?
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Mon 11 Jun, 2007 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think you need a Holodeck to learn HEMA.
They didn't have one back in the day, and yet, they learned.
You are never going to get there 100%, and issues like taking risks you wouldn't take in a real fight are real issues, but by using a variety of training equipment (the so-called 'triangulation' approach, you can come pretty close I think.
One of the reasons we make our sparring weapons safe in the sense that they are reasonably unlikely to cause serious injuries (i.e. internal bleeding or broken bones) they aren't exactly fun to be hit with. You can be pretty intimidated by one of these, trust me, and if you are too bold, you may end up seeing stars with a pretty big bruise on you. Steel flexirapeirs, and steel longsword blunts, are plenty scary, albiet not as much as the real thing. But we try to use those too as often as possible, for test-cutting, which not only teaches you how to cut things but it improves your form for fighting , and is a constant reminder of the physical reality of a sharp sword.
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 11 Jun, 2007 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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Jean Henri;
I just started taking courses and so far it seems like fun and educational, plus the people participating are so friendly and mutually respectful. ( 3 lessons in )
The hollow deck thing is just a little fantasizing about how nice it would be to have an opponent you couldn't possibly hurt and could apply techniques at full speed and power with " simulated " cutting that would seem real.
I fully agree with your previous post that we can learn and enjoy learning using the current available methods.
Jean
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Bob Burns
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| Posted: Mon 11 Jun, 2007 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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Exactly my point Jean, in any martial fighting art you can only get so close to reality without the practice thereof becoming all too dangerous to contemplate. Whether the art of dueling with rapiers, medieval battlefield reenactment, karate, jiujitsu, etc. Taking any of these to the level of reality would be utter insanity, that's just common sense!
The work our present day sword and rapier masters have done in their books and class instruction is monumentally fantastic and I applaud all of them for their genius work Why else would I have bought their books and devoted myself to those books! I am extremely grateful to all of them!
Especially with weapons, if there were not extensive safety measures taken in they're practice these arts of the sword and rapier would be exponentially more dangerous than the unarmed combat of eastern martial arts
The reenactors are doing something that is extremely important in my view, they are preserving and educating our present day society of a crucially important history.
For far more centuries the sword was the primary weapon that dictated the borders of countries in Europe, than those centuries wherein the gun was the weapon utilized.
I was only trying to help educate anyone that might not be familiar or totally understand the difference physically, emotionally, spiritually, how very different things would be in the total chaotic horror of the battlefield and it's impact on the mind and therefore how one would fight. One wrong move and somebody's guts are hanging out of their torso or blood is shooting out of their neck, etc. Certainly what I am saying is absolutely obvious to most everyone!
I was never disrespecting reenactment, as I stated it's an all too important practice to the education of our European History and I applaud it
I would have a total blast participating in reenactment, I think it totally Kicks Butt !
I also think the level of expertise our current day authors on swordsmanship and rapier fighting are some of the most beautiful, graceful, and complex martial arts to master and they have accomplished that, and this is Awesome !
I have purchased a Lot of sword and rapier instruction books for this exact reason, the level of expertise these authors have attained is absolutely incredible to me, especially given what little reference they had to start from!
They did not have the advantage of an education of long established uninterrupted arts like karate, etc. They had to put the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle together, and in view of this, what they have accomplished is absolutely stunning in my opinion
This is also my view of the reenactment groups as well !
Most Sincerely!
Bob
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Colin F.
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| Posted: Tue 12 Jun, 2007 9:39 am Post subject: |
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Well as far as it has gone on the board, I've offered him a sincere apology if he thinks I went in on my high horse.
I've linked him to this site and numerous others and offered him suggestions as to books so that he might find something useful in his re-enactment group.
Apart from that I've left it as it is. Thanks to all of you who have offered advice. There are a few myArmoury readers who've had a look at the group and I hope they don't think I haven't been a dent in the reputation of people who post here or who do HEMA for a living.
cheers to all,
Colin
Melchett - "In short, a German spy is giving away every one of our battle plans."
Cpt. Darling - "You look surprised, Blackadder."
Edmund - "I cerainly am, sir. I didn't realise we had any battle plans."
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Tue 12 Jun, 2007 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| Colin F. wrote: | Apart from that I've left it as it is. Thanks to all of you who have offered advice. There are a few myArmoury readers who've had a look at the group and I hope they don't think I haven't been a dent in the reputation of people who post here or who do HEMA for a living.
cheers to all,
Colin |
As far as I'm concerned you have been totally on the up and up Colin, you are a good example of what is good about the HEMA community, you brought up a healthy disucssion on the issue, which is proof as far as I'm concerned. You seem to have preicisely the kind of curiousity and open interestin learning which I think makes HEMA fun. Hope the outreach works out.
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Colin F.
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| Posted: Wed 13 Jun, 2007 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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So far no reply, although I doubt there will be now.
Thanks for the vote of confidence!
cheers,
Colin
Melchett - "In short, a German spy is giving away every one of our battle plans."
Cpt. Darling - "You look surprised, Blackadder."
Edmund - "I cerainly am, sir. I didn't realise we had any battle plans."
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