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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun, 2007 11:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't follow what you're saying. If John is using a zornhaw, he's striking it as one normally would; his step out to the side means that his edge impacts against Aaron's flat, the cut is stifled, and he either hits Aaron in the head or is now in a position to initiate actions from the bind. You seem to be implying that the zornhaw is transforming into a flat parry- never once did I see that demonstrated on the video.

So what exactly are you referring to anyways?
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 12:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I read the last argument (well, portions of it till it became...no.) about this and I implore all of you to cut it out please.

Question for Craig: "Nebenhut" is a guard you mentioned early on. I am assuming this is another name for "Alber", the "fools guard"?

M.

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Randall Pleasant




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 12:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael

When discussing holding the sword against a Zorn I am assuming that you are referring to performing an Absetzen (setting aside) of a Zornhau. Please correct me if you are talking about another technique involving the Zornhau.

When performing an absetzen with Left Pflug or Left Ochs we do allow the grip to rotate in our right hand and if one wishs they can indeed place their thumb upon the inside flat. This is historical, I think (not sure, don't have the material in front of me) the thumb on the flat is described in the Doebringer manual. A similar grip can also be seen in two images of Vadi. In the lower right image of Folio 17r (Luca Porzio, page 99) we can see same type of grip (can't tell if the thumb is on the flat). The text associated with the images say, "I am the long stance with the sword withdrawn that with my cunning beats [away] the blows" (Luca Porzio, page 98). Roughly 1/4 into the video John Clements is seen in this same position (except he has his point higher) beating away a blow. In the lower image on Folio 18r (Luca Porzio, page 103) the man on the left clearly has his thumb on the flat of his blade (this image is showing an unrelated technique). Therefore, in order to say that John Clements is wrong for putting his thumb on the flat you must also be willing to say that Vadi and other masters were wrong.

Please try to understand why I must view your statements as totally unfounded. We perform these technqiue all the time against very hard blows. We perform very very very hard cuts and we set them aside with our thumbs on the flat. To the best of my knowledge, not a single ARMA member has ever injuryed their thumb. Keep in mind that a blade will flex in the direction of the flat, thus the blade acts like a absorber, it is not the same as hitting two pipes together. In short, it just does not make sense for you to tell us that I cannot perform something that we have successfully perform hundreds upon hundreds of times.

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 6:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

M. Eversberg II wrote:
I read the last argument (well, portions of it till it became...no.) about this and I implore all of you to cut it out please.

Question for Craig: "Nebenhut" is a guard you mentioned early on. I am assuming this is another name for "Alber", the "fools guard"?

M.


No, Nebenhut is not the same as Alber, though it's similar. It's basically the position one finds one's self in after finishing a descending diagonal cut, starting right and finishing on the left. Like the other guards, it can be adopted from both sides.
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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 7:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Pleasant wrote:
Michael

Please try to understand why I must view your statements as totally unfounded. We perform these technqiue all the time against very hard blows. We perform very very very hard cuts and we set them aside with our thumbs on the flat. To the best of my knowledge, not a single ARMA member has ever injuryed their thumb... In short, it just does not make sense for you to tell us that I cannot perform something that we have successfully perform hundreds upon hundreds of times.

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW


I spent too little time with an ARMA study group several years ago and I'm a complete novice, but at that time everyone in the study group did the thumb bit without pain or injury. Admittedly only with wasters and padded weapons, not steel blunts, but with intent and power.

The thing is I don't recall us doing a static opposing action to block the incoming blade so much as to redirect while moving and opening a new line attack. In fact the movement (footwork) always seemed to me the key to the whole play. Based on injuries I have experienced in other sports, I can see how standing under a blow and trying to forcibly stop it cold while supporting the sword with the thumb could do serious damage to the thumb and the joint it rests in. But that was not how we played at it.

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R Smith




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 8:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
M. Eversberg II wrote:
I read the last argument (well, portions of it till it became...no.) about this and I implore all of you to cut it out please.

Question for Craig: "Nebenhut" is a guard you mentioned early on. I am assuming this is another name for "Alber", the "fools guard"?

M.


No, Nebenhut is not the same as Alber, though it's similar. It's basically the position one finds one's self in after finishing a descending diagonal cut, starting right and finishing on the left. Like the other guards, it can be adopted from both sides.


I am intrigued as to what sort of cut you would receive while in nebenhut as I would consider it to be a par with alber in that it is more of an invitation. I am going by an earlier statement which was this:
"Between Ochs, Hengen, Pflug, and Nebenhut on the left and right sides, you can essentially receive the cut while in the guard and deflect it. "
Perhaps being a bit picky but hey, why not, it's Friday! Big Grin

On to the subject of the thumb on the flat of the blade (which we refer to as "Fonzy grip"...patent pending!), we have never had any problems using this grip while performing an absetzen from Ochs or Pflug or meeting an oberhau with a zwerchau. In fact your blade has very little strength without it there. Then again we meet the threat with an oblique edge while performing a single timed attack which acts as the defence.

"Those with wisdom loathe the one forced to defend." - Liechtenauer

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Michael Edelson




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 8:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Randall,

The thumb on the blade is, as you know, mentioned in several treatises. I hold perhaps half of my guards this way. My contention is that it is not mentioned as part of a flat parry and should not be used as such.

I don't know what you guys do, I only know what is shown on that video and what was shown to me by ARMA Brooklyn two years ago. They demonstarted a flat parry, as was shown to them by John Clements at a seminar (of course they could have misunderstood) against an oberhau with the thumb on the blade. It hurt very, very much.

The zornhau as I understand is not a redirection, it is a dead stop (this may not be popular terminology for it, but if you execute a zornhau against his oberhau his sword stops moving) followed by a thrust to the face with several other possibilities depending on how the bind takes place. John Clements, according to the video, now does it exactly this way with his edge, but now calls it "intercept".

Don't take this the wrong way, Randall, but I don't want to get into this any further. I provided my explanation, at Craig's request, based on what was described as a flat parry on that video. I can't really argue further, since ARMA keeps changing their defininiot of edge blocking (now it's okay if you call it an intercept??). I can't and don't want to fight a moving target.

I'm not claiming to be a great authority on the subject, but all we can do is present things as we see them. I'm sure that John Clements and ARMA have some very goo reasons for doing things the way they do them, but I don't understand them.

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Randall Pleasant




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 9:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael

Nothing is being taken the wrong way, this is just friendly discussion to help you and others to understand what we do and why we do it.

As practiced within ARMA and as taught by John Clements, when a Zornhau is used to counter an Oberhau the adversary's blade is not stopped, it is displaced. At the start of this video http://www.thearma.org/Videos/TrueMastery_ZornDisplacing.mov Aaron on the right is throwing a verticle Oberhau and John Clements counters by cutting a Zornhau into the flat of Aaron's blade. The action of this impact causes Aaron's blade to be knocked out to the side where it does no harm, the reaction of this impact changes John's Zornhau into a verticle cut. This is why explains why John does not step online. In the Zorn-to-Zorn counters shown later in the video John's blade follows a path that is roughly 90 degree right angle to the path of Aaron's blade, thus John's edge impacts the flat of Aaron's blade, knocking it down. These action will most likely result in a bind in which Aaron's edge is against John's lower guard, John's edge is against the flat of Aaron's blade, and John's point is in Aaron's face (John is in a lower hanging position). At no point is John's blade put in the way of Aaron's blade. The only possible stop occurs if Aaron's edge hits John's lower guard.

All the best,

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW


Last edited by Randall Pleasant on Fri 08 Jun, 2007 9:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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Michael Edelson




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 9:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Randall,

That interpretation of the zornhau is very different from the one we adhere to (or any that I am familiar with). That might explain the differences in the application of terminology.

If I understand it correctly now, you're saying that edge on flat is the natural result of the way you execute your techniques, not something you do deliberately. If so, I understand you a lot better now. I don't agree with your interpretations, because that is not how I read it the treatises, but that is another topic.

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Randall Pleasant




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 9:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Edelson wrote:
If I understand it correctly now, you're saying that edge on flat is the natural result of the way you execute your techniques, not something you do deliberately.


That is correct. That is why I often say that edge-on-edge is not so much something we don't do as it is something that just does not happen. In sparring we don't think about it.

Ran Pleasant
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Greg Mele
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 11:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
I don't follow what you're saying. If John is using a zornhaw, he's striking it as one normally would; his step out to the side means that his edge impacts against Aaron's flat, the cut is stifled, and he either hits Aaron in the head or is now in a position to initiate actions from the bind. You seem to be implying that the zornhaw is transforming into a flat parry- never once did I see that demonstrated on the video.


Right, which is why, as we discussed "on that other thread", it isn't a flat parry - he is striking with his edge. Only the parrying sword defines the parry.

Again, this isn't some new amazing thing that only ARMA does. Most of the folks that Randall named use this same parry. However, the larger point is that the words of the masters themselves make it clear that often the blades will meet edge to edge, and they could care one with about that. Just as sometimes they need to strike your flat in a deflection, and then they specifically tell you.

Craig, I don't think there's anything wrong with your posting the clip and I'm not going to derail this thread; I don't want Chad to have to lock another thread. Folks can go read the old one. All I'm asking is that we please use correct fencing terminology - a "flat" parry means that you are receiving a blow on your flat or striking an attacking sword with your flat. This is a parry with the edge. We can't rewrite five centuries of fencing language.
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James Barker




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 1:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Why can't people just accept the fact that both edge to edge and edge to flat parries are going to happen and move on with this silly debate?


You know the Germans and Swiss have the most arms used by common soldiers in museums and many of them are made like crap and are chewed up that tells me allot about how blades were used as they are not high end swords used to make a lord look wealthy as so many blades are.

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Greg Mele
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 1:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Barker wrote:
Why can't people just accept the fact that both edge to edge and edge to flat parries are going to happen and move on with this silly debate?


You know the Germans and Swiss have the most arms used by common soldiers in museums and many of them are made like crap and are chewed up that tells me allot about how blades were used as they are not high end swords used to make a lord look wealthy as so many blades are.


I don't know James, like I said in the other thread, we can document edge to edge, edge to flat and occassionally flat to edge, and we can see evidence of all three on suriving weapons. Why this is must be such a dogmatic thing befuddles me.
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Randall Pleasant




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 1:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greg

You are right, there are other people who perform a Zorn-to-Oberhau counter just like ARMA, but are also many others do not. For example, Bill Grandy stated in another thread that he keeps his strong in the path of the Zornhau he is countering, thus performing his counter Zorn more as an absetzen than as an actual cut. This is basically what I observed at the WAMW 2006 event. At that event I never once saw the Zorn-to-Oberhau counter performed in the same manner as it is performed by ARMA members. In fact, my observations suggest that most of the people at the event would have to change a lot of what they do in order to perform the counter in the same manner as ARMA. These changes include standing in Vom Tag with the hilt over the shoulder rather than in front of the chest, which would allow the hilt to be torqued at shoulder height rather than leverage at or below chest level, which would allow more longer, more powerful cuts, which would results in fighting starting at greater distance, such as seen in the video of John and Aaron.

I can care less if you call what John does in the video an "edge parry" or a "flat parry". But it is clear that there is not a single reason for calling it an "edge-on-edge parry".

Ran Pleasant
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Christian Henry Tobler




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 1:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Umm...no Randall, Bill did not say that he doesn't perform a cut. Instead he said that, yes, there are similarities between it and an Absetzen.

CHT

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Randall Pleasant




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 2:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Barker wrote:
Why can't people just accept the fact that both edge to edge and edge to flat parries are going to happen and move on with this silly debate?


You know the Germans and Swiss have the most arms used by common soldiers in museums and many of them are made like crap and are chewed up that tells me allot about how blades were used as they are not high end swords used to make a lord look wealthy as so many blades are.


James

Is it a silly debate? It is no more silly than knowingly damaging one's weapon when there are other ways to perform the same technique in a more martially sound manner without such damage. Note that it is not just ARMA that see this type of damage. Guy Windsor stated on another form that he experienced enough edge damage that he changed the way he performed parries, noting that hitting the flat did not cause that type of damage (check some of the other thread here on myArmoury for a direct quote of Mr. Windsor).

In regard to the edge damage seen on swords in museums, do you think the soldiers who used those weapons just didn't to care to protect their weapons or do you think that is damage that occurred in the mist of combat in spite of the fact that they cared for their weapons. Is there evidence that the blades were protected from rust? If soliders didn't care to protect their edges why would they protect their weapons from rust? Remember, a modern soldiers may have to drag his weapons thru mud in order to protect himself but modern soldier are never taught to just stick their weapons in the mud for no good reason.

Ran Pleasant
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Randall Pleasant




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 2:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian Henry Tobler wrote:
Umm...no Randall, Bill did not say that he doesn't perform a cut. Instead he said that, yes, there are similarities between it and an Absetzen.

Christian

If Bill pulls his hilt down during his counter Zorn so that the strong of his blade is in front of the on-coming blade then Bill cannot possibly be performing a full power Zornhau. This is something very very different from how we perform this technique.

For the general reader I should point out that in the videos you do not see John Clements performing fully power cuts because of safety. In the video John is making a large effort to not hit Aaron. If Aaron had been wearing a fensing mask then John's arms would have been more extended.

Ran Pleasant
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 2:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Actually, I said that I do the first play of the zornhau as a thrust to the face, as the text says to do. And I said that if the opponent is too close, it becomes a cut instead.

To be clear, I do practice countercuts by stepping offline and using a zornhau. But I feel the first play of the zornhau is actually safer to perform if the situation allows it.

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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 3:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Barker wrote:
Why can't people just accept the fact that both edge to edge and edge to flat parries are going to happen and move on with this silly debate?


Because I believe that there is an optimal way of doing things, one which is better than the other, and that this is the one worth practicing. The deflections and parries demonstrated in that video are optimal because they automatically preserve one's edges, they are very efficient, they work effectively against cuts made with force and intent, and they either injure the opponent or leave one's blade in an excellent position to cause harm.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Jun, 2007 3:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Folks,
We're back to where these debates always end up: with nothing new being presented. Both sides of this debate are firmly entrenched and no one is changing camps anytime soon. I have yet to see anyone from either side say "Oh, I get your point, I'm going to change how I do things." Both sides think they're right and the others are wrong, or worse yet, doltish. Happy

These polarizing topics add nothing to this site; they don't really present anything new or life-changing either. I'd love to see people agree to disagree (since there will never be any kind of other agreement) and then let's talk about something else. Happy

This is not spoken as a Moderator (yet) just a long-time reader sick to bloody death of threads of this nature. As a reader, I loathe them. As a Mod, I'm no big fan either, though this thread has been relatively well-behaved so far (thanks!).

Happy

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