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Vincent Le Chevalier




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PostPosted: Thu 13 Oct, 2011 10:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Aleksei Sosnovski wrote:
And there are even some pictures without proper quotes. Vincent Le Chevalier, picture on p. 68 of the manual looks as if both opponents are cutting at each other's swords in mid-air, non of the fighters seems to be aiming at his opponent. Please quote description of this technique, or next time I will post a picture from Mac. Bible as a proof that it is possible to cut a maille-clad opponent in two. No offence, I just like original sources and am very suspicious of interpretations.

Actually I have already posted a link to the transcription/French translation by Lionel Lauvernay... Which you should read if you don't want to trust someone else's opinion.

If you want to know the transcription of the text of that particular plate is:
Quote:
Tanto è rigorosa la legge dello honore, che trovandosi Pompilio aggravato nello honore, da Volpiano : havendolo chiamato à battaglia ; e esso venutovi : Pompilio con una spada, da una mano e meza ; fattagli appresentare dallo aversario : si fermò in guardia di fuora : con la spada bene impugnata. Volpiano anche esso se gli fermò allo incontro : in guardia di dentro : tenendo con molta ragione, la sua spada in mano.

Pompilio quivi con molta prestezza, col filo falso della sua spada ; essendo Attore, andò à Volpiano trovare Volpiano ; e due volte gli batte l’una, dopò l’altra, la spada : lasciandogli di subito, dopò le due battute, un gran dritto sgualembrato verso la testa.

Volpiano in quel punto si fortificò la spada in mano verso le due battute di Pompilio : talmente che esso non gli puote portare la spada fuora di tempo. Et appresso con molta prestezza, contra il dritto del nimico tornando in guardia di dentro ; si come si era prima fermato : con buona ragione : si difese da quella botta.

Pompilio havendo tirato quel suo dritto ; ritornò esso anchora in guardia di dentro ; e di novo tornò à battere la spada nimica due volte ; l’una dietro all’altra di fuora ; come havea già fatto, col filo falso della sua spada ; e instantimente lascia un gran roverso, verso la testa di Volpiano.

Volpiano intento al fatto suo ; va con giustezza à incontrare le due battute di Pompilio ; e fortificatasi ben la spada in mano, giustandosi, havendo contra quel roverso ben voltato il filo buono della sua spada, con molta arte, e honoratamente da quel nimico roverso si difese.

Pompilio vedendo à buona prova, che il suo contrario, da suoi colpi benissimo si difende ; si delibera di non voler più coltellare : e con cotale risolutione, va di lungo, e trova à meza spada, la spada di Volpiano ; e subito che esso l’ha trovata incomincia con molta destrezza à contrastare ; hora con fortezza, hora con agilità ; contra la spada nimica, e havendo trovato con questa maniera, occasione di poter entrare di punta, ò di dentro, ò di fuora ; spera secondo che se gli offerirà la occasione ; di poter sicuramente entrare.

Volpiano che molto ben conosce il disegno nimico : esso anchora stassi saldo, e giusto ; contra la trovata di Pompilio : e fortificandosi parimente, quando con fortezza, e quando con agilità ; va disfacendo ciò, che l’aversario suo disegna di fare contra di lui. Per la qual cosa, essendo stati tutti duo conosciuti ; da chi havea loro dato il campo : per prodi et saputi cavalieri furono da lui partiti ; e per lui fatti amici.


This time I won't translate, as all translations are interpretations, you know Happy As far as I know the text does not point out to which action exactly the plate corresponds, but here I can't find any other phase that fits the illustration better than the parry against the mandritto.

For that matter the position is precisely the one I would expect to land into when blocking a cut without counterattacking: neither swords are an obvious threat against the opponent, the sword of the cutter having been intercepted safely before arriving on target, the sword of the defender being raised in the air. Do note that Volpiano is to the right (this is readable on the manuscript but not on the scan). Note also that the distance is such that the strike could have landed if Volpiano had done nothing, which brings the crossing closer to the hilts, which does preserve the edges somewhat, not because Volpiano took special care to preserve it, but because he is doing a tactically sound move.

Regards,

--
Vincent
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Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 870

PostPosted: Thu 13 Oct, 2011 10:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mackenzie Cosens wrote:
1) Does anyone know of a historical source that says something to the effect of: "Don't bock with your edge cause you'll damage your sword"?

And that's really the good question to ask...
I've quoted Thibault a few posts ago who says a static block could break the defender's sword, without specifically mentioning edge damage. Viggianni points out that the attacking sword could break, not that either sword could get dull. Basically I've never seen an explicit reference to edge damage in technical sources: nicks, gouges, dulling, etc. are just not considered. Just breaks, and not all that often either.

Assuming there are in fact no reference to edge damage in the works, by saying "don't parry with the edge as it will damage your sword", we ascribe a reason to the actions that is not given by the masters. They give a host of other reasons for their actions, that might be more relevant (even when the absence of edge damage is a likely consequence of the action)...

For example I don't need to invoke edge damage to say that reenactors striking forcefully out of range at each other's swords is not something the masters would approve of. If they did it with their flat instead it still wouldn't be right, without edge damage Happy

Why would we have to seek more reasons than already given to us? Reasons that might be wrong, on top of that Happy

Of course I'm lucky in that my period of interest (XVIth-XVIIth) has masters that tend to be quite a bit more wordy than earlier Big Grin

Regards,

--
Vincent
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Aleksei Sosnovski





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PostPosted: Thu 13 Oct, 2011 12:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:

Basically I've never seen an explicit reference to edge damage in technical sources: nicks, gouges, dulling, etc. are just not considered. Just breaks, and not all that often either.


There is a very simple explanation for this: one can't avoid damage if blades come into contact. Even deflecting a blow with a cut to the flat would damage the edge. I tried it with sharp swords so I know. Even half-speed actions damage edges. So indeed blunting and nicks are not considered.

However people had common sense back then too. This common sense could be somewhat different, but not too much. Having your mainly cutting blade dull is bad, but dull rapier is not a big problem. Having your blade broken at the tip is very bad. Having your blade broken at the forte is a disaster. Having your blade very deeply nicked... Depends on who you are, where you are and what blade you have. If it is your only sword and you can't afford another one then it is bad. If it is your main weapon of war and you expect to strike hard targets such as armor with it then it is even worse because it will very likely break. If you can just come home and take another sword... Who cares about a nicked blade, it's disposable! And if this blade is something short and sturdy such as dussack you again don't care too much, especially if it's your backup weapon.

It's nowadays when people put safety warnings on microwave ovens telling not to dry animals in them. 500 years ago Darvin's theory was working much better.

Oh, an interesting thing just came to mind. Many people fight using their fists for striking. But martial artists know that fists are very fragile and can be easily damaged. So many martial arts, including very effective ones practiced by special forces, avoid using fists and instead rely on other striking surfaces such as palms even though using these striking surfaces is less intuitive.
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Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 870

PostPosted: Thu 13 Oct, 2011 2:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Aleksei Sosnovski wrote:
It's nowadays when people put safety warnings on microwave ovens telling not to dry animals in them. 500 years ago Darvin's theory was working much better.

Given that some masters take care to point out that the sword has two edges and a point, I'm not sure they trusted common sense so much Happy Not too sure they should have, either...

Quote:
Oh, an interesting thing just came to mind. Many people fight using their fists for striking. But martial artists know that fists are very fragile and can be easily damaged. So many martial arts, including very effective ones practiced by special forces, avoid using fists and instead rely on other striking surfaces such as palms even though using these striking surfaces is less intuitive.

But then martial arts that use fists detail how to use them, and those that don't detail how to use open hands. Neither trust people's common sense when it comes to technical fighting matters, because that's a domain where common sense does not apply well, because most people (that need to be taught, anyway) have so little experience of it.

Once again, starting at the XVIth century, we have instructions of such detail, and sometimes they say that the edge should be used in such a way that we can assume that it will be damaged. So you can't use edge damage as a basis for interpretation, though it's good to be aware of the possibility... If only to pull your strike a bit if someone is poised to take it on their edge (which is a good reason to parry with the edge especially against those that don't Razz)

Regards,

--
Vincent
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Justin H. Núñez




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PostPosted: Fri 14 Oct, 2011 12:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was thinking, maybe that is why the Carranza and the other Spanish masters used the term "desvio" for that defensive action that is so hard to define (read: parry) I don't recall the term "parada" (literally same as French "parade") used for it until much later after some French technique intervention.
"Desvio" (should be an accented "i") from the verb "desviar" meaning: 1. tr. Apartar, alejar a alguien o algo del camino que seguía. o
3. tr. Esgr. Separar la espada del contrario, formando otro ángulo, para que no hiera en el punto en que estaba. (diccionario de la Real Academia Espanola).
trans: 1. Set apart, make farther away someone or something from the path that they, or it, was following.
3. Fencing. Separate the sword from the contrary subject (the object opposite towards which was traveling the sword), forming another angle, so that the contrary subject is not wounded on the point...

For what it's worth, there it is. a detour of the incoming blade that is still moving forward and the defending arm already extending for the riposte (not a counter attack as some may call it). This makes it appear to the untrained eye as a time hit (stop with opposition) or coup de temps. If you follow the instruction of the masters as to proper hand rotation and position and you are using a anything that is essentially rectangular (lenticular, diamond or what have you blade shape) you will end up with the blades engaging or making contact edge to edge, even when the attacking blade is a thrust because all thrusts should be with blade cross section parallel to the ground to allow for the proper flexing and to maintain the point in line and to be able to slide in between the ribs. The incoming blade will meet the defending blade edge to edge to a certain degree and then slide along it. That's the "desvio" part.

Also, in combat, whether friendly or un, you don't ever think about edge damage your weapon is just the tool that is saving your life or winning the assault. I remember that in some places the masters say it better receive some damage and save oneself than to lose your life. I think that applies with this topic to some degree.
I also think that edge damage could also be used in analyzing your proficiency in executing a desvio (parry) correctly. After an encounter of course...

This way is still taught at the master school in Italy I believe. Italian masters by way have no issues with this dilemma of edges and parries and ripostes in the original manuscripts as I understand. It is all a translation issue...


my widow's mite of info and opinion...

"Nothing in fencing is really difficult, it just takes work." - Aldo Nadi
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