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Peter Bosman
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 Posted: Tue 29 May, 2007 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| Lafayette C Curtis wrote: | | But you're quite correct in that these cavalrymen's tactical doctrines did not demand them to do a lot of fighting on horseback. When mounted they charged, when dismounted they fired. |
I guess that by thinking first and last as a rider I am unneccairily preoccupied with practicality in the saddle.
This thread makes me realise this agaín. When I was reading a late 19th century USC manual on equipment and management that made me realise it too. The two procedures described for holding the horses when near the site of fighting were very informative. This obviously does nót exclude mounted engagement but was enlighting nonetheless.
Thus my conclusion during the course of the thread was that 2. was the minor of priorities.
I have read a text which does not state the source(s) that describes the 'escopeta' - a short barrel of large caliber with a bellmouth - was carried oblong the pommel in a chamois sheeth - funda de ante (or -terciopelo-).
In a site about 'texas origins' there is mention of spanish cavalry being outfitted with a short bellmouthed 'escopeta' as a kind of early short carbine that was supposedly carried in hand (on thy).
I guess I need to subdivide 1. into
1a. travelling at ease through safe territory
b. travelling 'half cocked' through possible enemy territory
Peter
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Tue 29 May, 2007 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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Drats. I wrote "a lot of fighting on horseback" when what I meant was "a lot of firing on horseback." The mistake has been rectified.
Of course, Peter, it'd be interesting if we could know more about that method of carrying the firearm across the pommel of the saddle. Even if there are no more primary source references available for it, we'd be glad to hear of results from your own experiments.
Last edited by Lafayette C Curtis on Wed 30 May, 2007 5:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Tue 29 May, 2007 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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(Sorry for the double post. The first one didn't show up in my screen.)
Last edited by Lafayette C Curtis on Wed 30 May, 2007 5:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Wed 30 May, 2007 2:28 am Post subject: |
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| Lafayette C Curtis wrote: | | Of course, Peter, it'd be interesting if we could know more about that method of carrying the firearm across the pommel of the saddle. Even if there are no more primary source references available for it, we'd be glad to hear of results from your own experiments. |
I knów there is primairy source info and a reseach doc about documented 'indian' guns that show wear proving them being carried across the pommel. The challenge is to find it again 
When I get to the point of practicle experiments I will keep you informed. I have three relevant saddle types ourselves, vaquera, mcclellan and ecuyer.
On the 'period correctness' of the firearm(s) I am a bit in the doldrums. The only officially accepteable 'trabuco' per example is percussion type. Nayway, time will solve this.
Peter
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Gordon Frye
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| Posted: Wed 30 May, 2007 6:14 am Post subject: |
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Lafayette;
It was very common on the North American Frontiers to carry the long-arm balanced across the pommel of the saddle. There are many, many illustrations of this, and in fact there was even a leather loop which was loosely fitted over the horn of the Mexican/Western saddle, usually refered to as a "California Loop" that was to keep the rifle/shotgun in place during less-than-placid moments in the saddle. A good book on Frederick Remington or Charles M. Russell art will show several paintings or illustrations of this technique. What is interesting is that it was used by Mexican military and para-military forces, US military (though mostly experimental) and para-military forces, and the North West Mounted Police as an official method of carrying their carbines.
It's a very easy and comfortable way to carry a long arm, and it would surprise me greatly if no one outside of the North American West ever did it. This doesn't mean that they DID, of course, but it would surprise me, especially in the case of early forms of Horse Arquebusiers and Dragoons, who carried rather long and awkward firearms on horseback for long distances.
I'll look for some illustrations when I get home from work this afternoon.
Cheers!
Gordon
"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Thu 31 May, 2007 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| Gordon Frye wrote: | It's a very easy and comfortable way to carry a long arm, and it would surprise me greatly if no one outside of the North American West ever did it. This doesn't mean that they DID, of course, but it would surprise me, especially in the case of early forms of Horse Arquebusiers and Dragoons, who carried rather long and awkward firearms on horseback for long distances.
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In Spain it sure was customary and therefore no surprise that the 'habit' spread from Mexico northwards 
As to lónger guns I am doubtfull and I do not carry my 2 meter spear this way as it is rather akward when you have something sticking out that can poke into bushes or fellow riders, but that may be a matter of getting used to keeping it less across.
I suspéct it is most comfortable if the 'long' in long arm is relative and thus suspect thát is why the relatively short escopeta and trabuco were ideal to carry this way. It therefore may have been no coïncidance how the routine spread.
Peter
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Gordon Frye
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| Posted: Thu 31 May, 2007 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Peter Bosman wrote: |
As to lónger guns I am doubtfull and I do not carry my 2 meter spear this way as it is rather akward when you have something sticking out that can poke into bushes or fellow riders, but that may be a matter of getting used to keeping it less across. Peter |
It's also VERY awkward when riding in wooded country... Good way to either break the stock of your weapon, or unhorse yourself.  But in open plains, it's about the most comfortable method I've ever come across for carrying a long-arm, be it a musket, rifle or even a lance. Come to think of it, I've seen illustrations of Tatars and Mongols carrying their lances that way. It would probably help in keeping one's self somewhat less conspicuous than with a lance sticking up and pennant flying in the breeze, I would imagine. 
Cheers!
Gordon
"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Fri 01 Jun, 2007 4:40 am Post subject: |
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| Gordon Frye wrote: | It would probably help in keeping one's self somewhat less conspicuous than with a lance sticking up and pennant flying in the breeze, I would imagine.
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Not only that but what about wind force?! Riding against a headwind or with tailwind makes a HUGE difference on the force on anything sticking out. Something like a pennant on a lance would ehance this but would also tell you what force to reckon with.... Thát I háve tried and experienced. King Duarte writes about this and the light bamboo spears indeed blow all over the horse if you are not carefull. I have no doubt that the light mamluk lance is far more susceptible than a heavier western one or arquebus would be but this just goes to proove the point.
Same thing with shooting arrows. The western fingerpull puts the arrow on the wring side of the bow for a righthanded horseman and I strongly suspect thís was the reason for the thumbrelease. Windforce at a gallop is quite enough to push an arrow firmly against the bow or blow it off the hand.
I have btw meanwhile been 'expirimenting' with water from drinking bottles. It is virtually impossible to póór at a gallop. The vertical movements are stronger than gravitation. It is possible to squírt.
One can quite easily keep container and receptical in relative position but not possible to let gravity controll the transfer of fluid.
I have not tried yet but this may actually hélp when loading gunpowder from a premeasured 'cartridge' although a funnel shaped barrel mouth would no doubt be a great help. I guees this is why funnelmouthed pistols exist too, to aid reloading on a moving platform be this ship or horse.
Suspend the gun worryfree from bandolier- or belt clip/-hook, let the movements of the horse empty the pre-measured powder in the funnel.
So, my imaginary horseman is now riding at any pace with his relaitvely short funnelmouthed gun oblong the pommel and reloads by hooking it on his belt 
Peter
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Fri 01 Jun, 2007 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| Peter Bosman wrote: | | Same thing with shooting arrows. The western fingerpull puts the arrow on the wring side of the bow for a righthanded horseman and I strongly suspect thís was the reason for the thumbrelease. Windforce at a gallop is quite enough to push an arrow firmly against the bow or blow it off the hand. |
LOL. So true. Shooting to the left, wind coming from the front...poof. Arrow falls.
On a different note, I suppose I should ask you folks to excuse my ignorance for that specific method of carrying the firearm across the saddle. I've seen lances and spears carried this way, but I don't study Spanish or American equestrian history much so I guess I'm a bit behind the news on those two subjects.
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Gordon Frye
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| Posted: Fri 01 Jun, 2007 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| Lafayette C Curtis wrote: | | Peter Bosman wrote: | | Same thing with shooting arrows. The western fingerpull puts the arrow on the wring side of the bow for a righthanded horseman and I strongly suspect thís was the reason for the thumbrelease. Windforce at a gallop is quite enough to push an arrow firmly against the bow or blow it off the hand. |
LOL. So true. Shooting to the left, wind coming from the front...poof. Arrow falls.
On a different note, I suppose I should ask you folks to excuse my ignorance for that specific method of carrying the firearm across the saddle. I've seen lances and spears carried this way, but I don't study Spanish or American equestrian history much so I guess I'm a bit behind the news on those two subjects. |
Peter:
You know, I've done some horseback archery before, and this was indeed a problem. Never occurred to me to "go Asian" and try it from the left side, even though I was using a Mongol bow... OY! Live and learn...
Lafayette:
You just haven't played Cowboys and Indians enough! Well, make that a little earlier than Cowboys, and no 1950's Western Hero foolishness in there either... darned hard to stow a Plains Rifle in a saddle scabbard! Anyway, if you check out the iconography of the pre-American Civil War West (and even into the 1870's), it's almost universal to carry the rifle across the pommel of the saddle, be you a Santa Fe trader from Chihuahua or a Whiskey Trader in Alberta, or anything in between.
Cheers!
Gordon
"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Fri 01 Jun, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Gordon Frye wrote: |
You know, I've done some horseback archery before, and this was indeed a problem. Never occurred to me to "go Asian" and try it from the left side, even though I was using a Mongol bow... OY! Live and learn...
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...and it provides us with information about why the horsebow in the west was not used in the middle-ages to renaissance
Peter
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Sat 02 Jun, 2007 2:27 am Post subject: |
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The bow was used on horseback in Carolingian times and before--though I never checked specifically about whether those illustrations have the archers putting the arrow to the right of the bow (like we do) or the left. What we know is that these illustrations show the horse-archers as being equipped identically with the heavy horsemen except for their primary armament, and the current consensus is that they rode as an integral part of the milites/caballarii formations rather than as segregated horse-archer swarms. After that the practice seems to have vanished from in the central regions of Western Europe. In the western and eastern fringes, though (like Iberia, Poland, and Hungary) there were still at least some attempts to promote the retention of horse archery skills, with varying degrees of success.
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Sat 02 Jun, 2007 5:33 am Post subject: |
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The mounted bowmen from the asiatic plains are a bit of a special by being primairily mounted artillery and are best kept out of the equasion.
Celtic-, Ibero-Celtic-, Early Frankish cavaly et al were pretty much identical to the mamluk cavalry = as flexible as possible.
The bow was the weapon for long range, a javelin and throwing knife for medium short, the lance for short and mace/sword for contact. Not all carried the same either as personal preference played a heavy role.
The mandatory!!! weaponry of a frankisch freeman is listed in detail in a somons to the yearly war meeting, including the warning that the travelling men should behave worthy like honourable rulers of the areas they travel through
Bow, javelin, lance, mace, sword and longsword are all mentioned.
I know you will want the source and I have been TRYING to re-unearth it. It is buried somerwhel in sallic info on http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook.html
Sorry 
Peter
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Lafayette C Curtis
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Sun 03 Jun, 2007 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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Impressive piece of searching this! Yes, you are spot on. Thank you Lafayete.
Peter
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Mon 04 Jun, 2007 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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Right, my weapons permit has passed spanish red tape with a seal of approval
The next hurdle is the euro-proofing and that is proofing (bb) to be a genuine húrdle for the intended period 
To clip or not to clip is still in the future...  Wáy in the future because íf and whén I get a muzzle loader inscribed in my 'libro de armas' I will need to get a hunting permit to be officially allowed to take it outside on my land...
Peter
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Gordon Frye
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Tue 05 Jun, 2007 2:12 am Post subject: |
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Yes indeed. The thing is that if I decide to skip a hurdle I might just as well not have applied for the permit because it will still be illegal....
Well, as always, no doubt time will present a solution to this luxury 'problem'.
Peter
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Wed 06 Jun, 2007 12:42 am Post subject: |
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Being a Dutch horseman I am very surprised by a beautifull set of 1670 Dutch horsemans' carbines.
Only 26" long overall, gun slings, double sights, setting trigger.....
I asked around about them and was told these were carried in holsters in front of the pommel like pistols. Sofar no illustration of this though.
I have decided to buy a cheapish gun in kit form and try modify it to this type.
Peter
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Sun 21 Oct, 2007 10:35 am Post subject: |
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I competed in a raid (rough country horse endurance race) and during preparations I found a vintage bronze clip. With some leftovers from leatherwork I have made a bandolier clip that I can suspend from any belt or any ring.
It has no swivel but the leather suspender evades the need.
I will make a picture asap.
peter
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This is a standard topic