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Jason C. D.
Location: ON, Canada Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 11
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 Posted: Mon 21 May, 2007 5:00 am Post subject: XVIa cross-section |
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Hello all, first post on myArmoury  . I was considering placing a custom order with Vladimir Cervenka, and wanted to know alittle more about the sword in question. It appeared to me, in the feature profiling Ewart's Typology (my bible at the moment) that XVa has a hexagonal cross-section, as opposed to a flated diamond like it's single-handed cousin. Though I have seen, mostly from albion, blades which are supposed to be XVIa but are flatened diamond like a XVIIIa...Now I realise that swords may exibit many characteristics. As a general rule though, should the blade have a cross-section that's hexagonal or flattened diamond, and are there positives and negatives for either?
Also, can anyone tell me if Vladimir Cervenka is familiar with Ewart's typology? I wouldn't think so but...
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Angus Trim
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| Posted: Mon 21 May, 2007 8:44 am Post subject: Re: XVIa cross-section |
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| Jason C. D. wrote: | Hello all, first post on myArmoury . I was considering placing a custom order with Vladimir Cervenka, and wanted to know alittle more about the sword in question. It appeared to me, in the feature profiling Ewart's Typology (my bible at the moment) that XVa has a hexagonal cross-section, as opposed to a flated diamond like it's single-handed cousin. Though I have seen, mostly from albion, blades which are supposed to be XVIa but are flatened diamond like a XVIIIa...Now I realise that swords may exibit many characteristics. As a general rule though, should the blade have a cross-section that's hexagonal or flattened diamond, and are there positives and negatives for either?
Also, can anyone tell me if Vladimir Cervenka is familiar with Ewart's typology? I wouldn't think so but... |
Hi Jason
The XVIa can have either hex or flattened diamond crossection. For the same thickness, the hex is more rigid, and heavier.
Yes, Mr. Cervenka is familiar with the Oakeshott typology..........
swords are fun
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Jason C. D.
Location: ON, Canada Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Mon 21 May, 2007 9:12 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Angus and Nathan, that's what I needed to know.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Mon 21 May, 2007 9:21 am Post subject: |
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In Oakeshott's earlier works, he specifically says XVIa has a hexagonal cross-section. In Records of the Medieval Sword, I don't think he mentions the cross-section for the sub-type at all, though, though the drawing doesn't show a central ridge/midrib.
If a longsword has a diamond cross-section, short fuller, and a non-straight edge, it's probably a Type XVIIIa. If it has the same things, but the fuller is longer, I would think it would have to fit XVIa, as there wouldn't really be another place for it in the typology (not that everything has to fit anyway).
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Jason C. D.
Location: ON, Canada Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Mon 21 May, 2007 11:22 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, it is quite a difficult sub-type to grasp. It seems a bit over-looked, not too many reproductions on the market. Love versatility of it's form though.
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R. D. Simpson
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| Posted: Mon 21 May, 2007 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: | In Oakeshott's earlier works, he specifically says XVIa has a hexagonal cross-section. In Records of the Medieval Sword, I don't think he mentions the cross-section for the sub-type at all, though, though the drawing doesn't show a central ridge/midrib.
If a longsword has a diamond cross-section, short fuller, and a non-straight edge, it's probably a Type XVIIIa. If it has the same things, but the fuller is longer, I would think it would have to fit XVIa, as there wouldn't really be another place for it in the typology (not that everything has to fit anyway). |
But Oakeshott also mentions a Type XVIa (figure 38 in The Sword in the Age of Chivalry) "whose blade . . . seems to be of a very long and attenuated Type XVI," that is, of flattened diamond cross-section. So it would seem that there is at least one notable exception to the norm of a hexagonal cross-section.
Gloria Virtutem Sequitur
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Mon 21 May, 2007 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| R. D. Simpson wrote: |
But Oakeshott also mentions a Type XVIa (figure 38 in The Sword in the Age of Chivalry) "whose blade . . . seems to be of a very long and attenuated Type XVI," that is, of flattened diamond cross-section. So it would seem that there is at least one notable exception to the norm of a hexagonal cross-section. |
Right. Even though he mentions the hex section as a defining characteristic, he still categorizes "atypical" swords based on other characteristics. For example, the first Type XIV illustrated in Records (from the Met) has a diamond section tip which should make it a XVI, except that everything else is more XIV-ish.
I think it's perfectly acceptable to call something "a Type XVIa with a diamond section" as swords were not originally made to be pigeon-holed into an artificial modern system of classification. There will be exceptions and swords that just don't fit anywhere. I think Oakeshott considered the typology a work in progress. I love his quote that these typologies were "merely a scaffolding to bring some order into the otherwise amorphous and infinitely varied mass of medieval blade, cross, and pommel forms." A scaffold is something you build so you can build other things. It's not an end product. Same with the typologies: they are tools with which to gain a greater understanding of a sword, not something to use solely to break a sword's components into neatly organized chunks.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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