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Peter Bosman
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 Posted: Mon 14 May, 2007 4:40 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | So maybe not into the 19th ... |
And thus I wrote UP to the 19th century meaning untíll, but that may be incorrect use of the english language which is after all foreign to me. My excuse for any confusion.
I have actually hándled museum pieces made in germany well back in the 18th century. Those were genuin pieces of art quite a world removed from the most luxuriously worked flintlock I have seen. The most impressive is the increadible sleekness'of the guns to the poin of them appearing almost harmless art.
To me it is quite clear that the flintlock did nót supercede the wheellock but develloped into an area the wheellock never entered. The flintlock superceded the matchlock.
The top range of the 'market' remained a domain of the wheellock untill quite late.
Obviously there is bound to be 'grey'.
It strikes me as no coïncidance that today wheellock replicas are very hard to come by. Even today the skill needed to make a reliable wheellock is on another level than to produce a functional flintlock.
Blunderbuss were most definitely not exclusively made for coaches nor anywhere near mostly used there. The village I live in is actually called 'trabuco' = blunderbuss and this goes back to at least the 16th century and in severeal folkrolic stories refers to the 'bandoleros' in the mountais here and also to a dutch inn-keeper who had a dutch 'trabuco'.
The blunderbuss was the preferred weapon by the bandoleros = highwaymen.
Also it was a very suiteable weapon for sailors hence its popularity with the dutch.
This noted I do wholeheartedly agree that the funnel facilitates loading even on horseback 
Peter
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Lin Robinson
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| Posted: Mon 14 May, 2007 5:03 am Post subject: |
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Peter...
Regarding blunderbusses as coach guns, I said extensively, not exclusively. They were used as weapons of attack and defense elsewhere, including on board ship. They were used as hunting guns and I have seen some antiques in this country that were used as "poacher guns". These guns were mounted on swivels set into the ground with the trigger attached to a lanyard. When a poacher was in the area he might trip on the lanyard, causing the gun to swivel in his direction and fire in his direction. Tryon's Palace, in New Bern, NC, has a couple of examples of these types of guns on display. The use of a blunderbuss barrel on these contraptions undoubtedly stems from the mistaken belief that shot fired from them is widely disbursed.
By the way, you mentioned The Rifle Shoppe in one of your posts. I see in their catalog that they mention wheel locks being made into the 1820s, but do not cite a reference.
Lin Robinson
"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Mon 14 May, 2007 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Lin Robinson wrote: | | Regarding blunderbusses as coach guns, I said extensively, not exclusively. |
Ok, point taken.
| Quote: | | The use of a blunderbuss barrel on these contraptions undoubtedly stems from the mistaken belief that shot fired from them is widely disbursed. |
Well, yes and no.
As I wrote our town is called blundersbuss-village and many dozens can be found here ranging from non-shooting ornament only to original period pieces in working condition.
On replicas the funnel at the end of the straight barrel indeed and quite logically, has no effect on a proper fitting ball, even shot. The funnel is simply making the barrel an inch or so shorter and that's it.
I have handled period blunderbuss however that have barrles very gradually tapering out from roughly halfway. Those were undoubtedly intended to be loaded with shot only and woúld most definitely spray it around. I guess the dutch inkeeper would have had one of those 
There was one 'tapered' example for sale on the site of Micheal D. Long not long ago.
Now, I do not know what the coach passenger would have carried but if that was such a tapering barrel the load would give a broad spread within a very short distance indeed making it one h... of a defensive arm.
Peter
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Thomas Watt
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| Posted: Mon 14 May, 2007 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Peter Bosman wrote: | ~snip~ On replicas the funnel at the end of the straight barrel indeed and quite logically, has no effect on a proper fitting ball, even shot. The funnel is simply making the barrel an inch or so shorter and that's it.
I have handled period blunderbuss however that have barrles very gradually tapering out from roughly halfway. Those were undoubtedly intended to be loaded with shot only and woúld most definitely spray it around. I guess the dutch inkeeper would have had one of those
There was one 'tapered' example for sale on the site of Micheal D. Long not long ago.
Now, I do not know what the coach passenger would have carried but if that was such a tapering barrel the load would give a broad spread within a very short distance indeed making it one h... of a defensive arm.
Peter |
Hi Peter, just as a note on this...
a shot load will spread quite effectively from a straight barrel...
the shot pattern spreads more quickly, the shorter the barrel.
While I don't doubt the bell-shaped muzzle must affect the spread somewhat, I think the major factor would be barrel length. I grant you that it "makes sense" that the bell-shaped muzzle ought to enhance the spread, and that may have been the original design intent, but I doubt that it plays as much a part as was hoped-for.
Have 11 swords, 2 dirks, half a dozen tomahawks and 2 Jeeps - seem to be a magnet for more of all.
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Lin Robinson
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| Posted: Mon 14 May, 2007 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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Thomas...Good point and one that I was going to make as well. The shot column spreads as it moves out of the barrel. It stays pretty much in tact until it leaves the end of the barrel then begins to spread out as wind resistance and gravity take over. The shorter the barrel the wider the spread and the larger the shot pattern as the load moves down range. A flared muzzle like those found on most blunderbuss guns will not significantly affect the spread, i.e. widen it, because the flare is relatively short in relation to rest of the barrel. The shot pattern leaves the restriciton of the tighter bore diameter found just ahead of the flare and begins its spread at that point. Since shot does not simply fly in all directions when it comes ouf the barrel of any shotgun, then the fact that a portion of the muzzle of the barrel from which it is fired is flared has virtually no effect on the spread of the shot. I guess a good analogy for this is the internal choke on a shotgun barrel. Shot patterns can be tightened or loosened depending on whether the choke is tight or loose. It does not matter if the barrel of the shotgun is straight or flared. What matters is the diameter of the bore through which it passes before it leaves the barrel and the length of the barrel. When the shot leaves the barrel of a blunderbuss it may begin to spread prior to leaving the the flared portion of the barrel, but no more than it would if the flare were cut off the barrel, shortening it. If you set up a full choke shotgun barrel with a flared barrel just beyond the choke, it will not significantly affect the shot column coming out of the gun. The length of the barrel (and the choke if any) is the ultimate determinant of how the shot spreads.
Several different points here. I hope nobody is confused.
Lin Robinson
"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
Last edited by Lin Robinson on Mon 14 May, 2007 7:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 14 May, 2007 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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The flared barrel:
1) Belief at the time that it did promote a rapid(er) spread of shot.
2) Makes loading fast maybe easier ?
3) Make the bore look bigger and more threatening when pointed at someone's face: The psychological factor. 
4) Style, tradition, looks cool in modern parlence.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Lin Robinson
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| Posted: Mon 14 May, 2007 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | The flared barrel:
1) Belief at the time that it did promote a rapid(er) spread of shot.
2) Makes loading fast maybe easier ?
3) Make the bore look bigger and more threatening when pointed at someone's face: The psychological factor.
4) Style, tradition, looks cool in modern parlence. |
1. Yes... that was believed but it was not true.
2. Yes...and the probable reason for the flare in the first place
3. Sure...scares me to think about it.
4. Absolutely.
Next case!
Lin Robinson
"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Tue 15 May, 2007 12:22 am Post subject: |
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| Thomas Watt wrote: | | While I don't doubt the bell-shaped muzzle must affect the spread somewhat, ... |
I am NOT arguing with the pattern of straight or choked barrel. The point is that I see barrels that do not simply have a bell-shaped múzzle but are tapering out from roughly halfway the barrel length. The largish bore, VERY short straight bit and taper are not at all a straight/choked barrel with a funnelled mouth. Different tool I guess.
Peter
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Tue 15 May, 2007 12:38 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Lin Robinson"] | Jean Thibodeau wrote: | The flared barrel:
1) Belief at the time that it did promote
1. Yes... that was believed but it was not true. |
Not true to us. Even if they didn't know better, it was nevertheless "true" to them so we shouldn't discount it out of hand.
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Thomas Watt
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| Posted: Tue 15 May, 2007 2:11 am Post subject: |
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| Peter Bosman wrote: | | Thomas Watt wrote: | | While I don't doubt the bell-shaped muzzle must affect the spread somewhat, ... |
I am NOT arguing with the pattern of straight or choked barrel. The point is that I see barrels that do not simply have a bell-shaped múzzle but are tapering out from roughly halfway the barrel length. The largish bore, VERY short straight bit and taper are not at all a straight/choked barrel with a funnelled mouth. Different tool I guess.
Peter |
Those sound interesting to look at and must display some interesting craftsmanship.
My thought (muzzle affecting spread) was in relation to modern ballistics with rifles, where changing the shape/pattern of the flash suppressor changes the flight pattern of the bullet as it exits the weapon, hence the suspicion that the bell pattern must affect the shot spread some (although I have no ballistics data for that).
Also from what you describe, it would seem that it functions as a very short barrel... from the point at which the barrel begins to taper outwards (spread) ought to function as the true muzzle, creating an ultra-short barrel and enhancing the scattergun effect.
Have 11 swords, 2 dirks, half a dozen tomahawks and 2 Jeeps - seem to be a magnet for more of all.
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Tue 15 May, 2007 4:08 am Post subject: |
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| Thomas Watt wrote: | | Those sound interesting to look at and must display some interesting craftsmanship. |
I thought so too untill I saw and understood how handforged barrels are made. They are forgewelded into a tube from a flat bar folded around an insert that prevents it collapsing. All one needs to get a taper is an asymetric iron strip and a conical insert and the rest of the craft remains identical.
@barrel length, yes, very short, some 14 -16 inches, half of which is tapered out. In effect a lot shorter than most pistols. There are btw also 'flared' pistols around over here.
I guess a funneled mouth only facilitates loading and a tapered barrel spreads shot. Two different arms superficially appearing alike.
Peter
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Tue 15 May, 2007 4:10 am Post subject: |
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| Thomas Watt wrote: | | Those sound interesting to look at and must display some interesting craftsmanship. |
I thought so too untill I saw and understood how handforged barrels are made. They are forgewelded into a tube from a flat bar folded around an insert that prevents it collapsing. All one needs to get a taper is an asymetric iron strip and a conical insert and the rest of the craft remains identical.
@barrel length, yes, very short, some 14 -16 inches, half of which is tapered out. In effect a lot shorter than most pistols. There are btw also 'flared' pistols around over here.
I guess a funneled mouth only facilitates loading and a tapered barrel spreads shot. Two different arms superficially appearing alike.
Peter
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Daniel Staberg
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| Posted: Tue 15 May, 2007 4:35 am Post subject: |
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The wheellock soldiered on in military use well into the first decades of the 18th Century. No armed force of the day had the resources to replace all of it's weaponry in an instant and older arms were kept in storage rather than scrapped.
In a large army such as the French it was not unusal to find top of the line units equipped with the latest arms while out of the way garrison units soldiered on with older arms such as matchlocks.
With regard to the wheellock one only need to take a look at one of the premier armies of the day, the Swedish army.
It introduced no less than 3 new wheellock pistols in the last two decades of the 17th Century (m/1683, m/1685 and m/1690) while testing two types of flintlock pistols (m/1687 & m/1688) before settling for a flintlock in the shape of the m/1699 pistol. It was the same with carbines where three or four types of wheellock carbines (m/1680, m/1683, m/1685 & m/1695) was introduced prior to the introduction of the first flintlock carbine (m/1699)
When war broke in 1700 there had simply been neither time nor money for many, probably most, of the Swedish cavalry troopers to replace their 'old' wheellocks' with newer flintlocks. You went to war with the equippment you had. And when units were rapidly riased in emergencies they had to make do what was available.
Daniel
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Sean Flynt
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| Posted: Tue 15 May, 2007 11:25 am Post subject: |
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Firearms are not my field of interest, so forgive my wild speculating.
• The very short length of the blunderbuss made it popular for close-quarters combat (shipboard and either attacking or defending a coach).
• In the kinds of sudden, close combat situations in which this weapon would be used, it might be fired from the waist or mid-torso rather than mounted and fired from the shoulder.
• Fired from a low position, one might be tempted/forced to grip the stock very close to the muzzle.
So, could the bell shape be intended to either protect the hand from muzzle blast or actually prevent the hand or fingers from accidently sliding up over the muzzle? I'm aware that there are bell-muzzle pistols, and that seems to challenge my theory since those would be used with one-hand only.
-Sean
Author of the Little Hammer novel
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Tue 15 May, 2007 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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Dunno Sean on the basis of insufficient knowledge BUT
- the tapering out pistols make you reasoning improbable
- ALL of the réaly old ones here have tapered barrels not just funnel shaped muzzles so I gues it is an adaptation to its inted close quarter use. Imagine a sawn off shotgun with a long tapered out barrel....Yo may not hit anything inténded in 20 yards but just about ányting within 5.
Peter
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