Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Samurai vs. Knights in pitched battle Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next 
Author Message
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,451

PostPosted: Sun 13 May, 2007 3:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Can anyone point to a foreign army that the Japanese managed to defeat during this time?
View user's profile Send private message
Darryl Aoki





Joined: 12 Oct 2006

Posts: 93

PostPosted: Sun 13 May, 2007 9:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Can anyone point to a foreign army that the Japanese managed to defeat during this time?


The Japanese didn't really interact very much with the outside world until Commodore Perry's Black Fleet, excepting the Mongol invasions of the 13th Century and the Japanese invasion of Korea in the late 16th Century. I'd consider the Mongol defeats to be more down to the weather, though the Japanese ability to deny the Mongols a beach-head certainly didn't hurt. From the references I've seen, the Japanese army that invaded Korea dealt fairly well with the Korean and Chinese forces arrayed against them, but their navy was roughly handled, which forced the Japanese to retreat. (Darn supply lines!)

I certainly can't think of any organized foreign adventures the Japanese mounted during the 1300-1400s. The general lack of cohesion among the various parties vying for power would probably have made any such attempts feeble at best; any serious commitment of strength would leave that faction weakened at home and easy pickings.
View user's profile Send private message
Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 2,689

PostPosted: Mon 14 May, 2007 4:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Daryl's answer pretty much spot-on as far as I can tell. The Japanese made another intervention in Korea during the wars of the Three Kingdoms to aid their Goguryeo allies against the coalition of the Silla Koreans and the Tang Chinese forces. This is way outside the timeframe of "samurai" warfare, however. Another thing I remember is a small "border dispute" between the Japanese and a Chinese empire where both sides mounted small-scale naval expeditions to a small group of outlying islands, but this war was quite sporadic in nature and was won more with diplomacy than actual fighting. I don't remember the precise time period, however--all I can tell is that the Japanese referred to the central authority of a pre-Tokugawa shogun, so it was definitely between the 12th and the 16th centuries.

BTW, the Mongol defeat also had something to do with the enterprising actions of the Japanese, since in the second invasion they sent numerous raiding parties in small boats to spoil the Mongol preparations and prevent them from landing in one massive force. The Korean and Chinese crews of the Mongol ships, too, seemed to have been somewhat mutinous and some might have actually sabotaged the operation.
View user's profile Send private message
Felix Wang




Location: Fresno, CA
Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Reading list: 17 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 394

PostPosted: Mon 14 May, 2007 3:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One tactical wrinkle has not, I think, been thoroughly explored yet. The nature of the Japanese attack of mixed horsemen and foot has been discussed, and the prediliction of the English for fighting on foot (which did not preclude them from mounting up on occasion).

What would the effect of a "classic" medieval knightly charge be? If the Japanese are in a stable defensive position behind pavises and stakes, their bowmen might well break up such an attack. But, if the Japanese are maneuvering or mounting an attack of their own, the situation might turn out quite differently. The Japanese did not make much (if any?) use of the couched lance, and do not seem to have generally charged with the idea of charging through the enemy. They seem to have charged up to the enemy instead. European horsemen, on the other hand, fought as cavalry units, with the ideal of charging through the enemy ranks and overthrowing as many foes as possible. It is hard to know how well the Japanese would stand up to this sort of attack. Muslim armies had grave problems coping with this sort of attack, unless they had lots of horse archer skirmishers (who couldn't be caught by the charge), and enough space to absorb the charge, and/or vastly greater numbers (to sacrifice to slow down the charge).

Japanese armour may not have been lighter than European armour, but it was also not designed to stop a couched lance.
View user's profile Send private message
Philip S





Joined: 23 May 2007

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2007 2:35 am    Post subject: Ninja non existant?         Reply with quote

Quote:

Sorry to derail the thread, but that is patently ridiculous. Ninja (if they even existed!!!) were likely not warriors. If they existed at all….




WRONG!


Ninja were not likely warriors? If they existed at all? Your shear lack of knowledge on the subject only negates your entire rebuttal... Sorry my friend, but you are VERY ill informed (or rather UN-informed)... I would be more than happy to help you with this by providing you with an excruciatingly detailed history of Ninja and their deployment in combat scenarios (namely the “Battle of Iga”). I hope you look into it, as it should help you to avoid coming off as such an ignoramus in the future Wink
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Terry Crain




Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 224

PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2007 6:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Philip,

I appreciate your strong view regarding ninjas and don't doubt your sincereity in offering to educate on their historic role as it relates to this thread, and while I am not a moderator, I am an almost daily reader of this site, as such, I can tell you that this site prides itself on an exchange of opinions and dialogue in a friendly, polite and cordial manner. Even if you disagree with someone's post, I respectfully suggest you should do so without personal attacks or namecalling.

The high level of respectful dialogue is one of the things that makes this site so unique and, IMHO, one of the very best sites on the web.

Best regards,

Terry

Terry Crain
A/K/A
Donal Grant

Honor, not Honors!
View user's profile Send private message
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2007 7:00 am    Post subject: Re: Ninja non existant?         Reply with quote

Philip S wrote:

WRONG!


Ninja were not likely warriors? If they existed at all? Your shear lack of knowledge on the subject only negates your entire rebuttal... Sorry my friend, but you are VERY ill informed (or rather UN-informed)... I would be more than happy to help you with this by providing you with an excruciatingly detailed history of Ninja and their deployment in combat scenarios (namely the “Battle of Iga”). I hope you look into it, as it should help you to avoid coming off as such an ignoramus in the future Wink


Philip,
This post is completely unacceptable in tone. Name-calling is never allowed here. Please read our simple Rules of Conduct.

I don't care if you disagree with someone, but all interactions here must be done with courtesy and respect, two things your post does not show.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 2,689

PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2007 8:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmm. Nobunaga's conquest of Iga? As far as I recall, it was a full campaign of significant duration--not a pitched battle, and if I'm not mistaken it the campaign was notable for its distinct lack of a pitched battle, which was rather unlike Nobunaga's Napoleonic style of warfare. Not to forget that the Iga party catually lost the war, at least if we judge its outcome by the fact that Nobunaga eventually achieved what he set out to do. Though many of the Iga clans managed to escape, they were scattered all over Japan and were no longer able to present a unified front against Nobunaga.

So, while the ninja were effective warriors on their own terms, and were even more effective as plainclothes spies/agents, but they were most empathically not battlefield troops. Unless somebody can convince us otherwise...
View user's profile Send private message
Robin Smith




Location: Louisiana
Joined: 23 Dec 2006
Likes: 4 pages
Reading list: 17 books

Posts: 746

PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2007 9:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
So, while the ninja were effective warriors on their own terms, and were even more effective as plainclothes spies/agents, but they were most empathically not battlefield troops. Unless somebody can convince us otherwise...

This is exactly my point. Everyone seems to get hung up of the "if they existed at all", which I was using rhetorically. I was pointing out that the idea most have of the ninja is in fact a myth, and what is known is highly debatable. If you had read my other posts, you would have seen that I mentioned ninja did infact exist. But as secret police, and as a mythical bogeyman capable of turning into shadow and walking through walls. Its one of the many tools Ieyasu and heirs would use to control through fear. Which is what it all comes down to. The modern ninja is primarily a Tokugawa era fabrication used to keep people in line through fear, compounded upon by modern mythmakers.
In fact I don't doubt the existence of the Kunoichi. Women have long been used for their sexual allure in warfare. And their use as courtesans and maids is probably much MUCH closer to the truth of ALL ninja.
Its like what would happen if the CIA faced off against the Army. There is all sorts of heinous things the CIA could do before the battle to cause problems, delay the attack, take out key leadership, and even prevent the battle from happening. However, if they did meet the Army for a toe-to-toe fight, they had already failed, and they are gonna lose, both because they would be grossly outnumbered and because spies and secret poilce aren't the same thing as soldiers. It is a gross misuse of their role in military strategy.

Oh and I'd argue that the majority of campaigns in Iga and Ise were against Sohei, not ninja...

A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Alex Oster




Location: Washington and Yokohama
Joined: 01 Mar 2004

Posts: 410

PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2007 11:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Only because they had gotten out of line, started bully-ing the locals, and interfearing in comerce. It was quite a church vs. state confrontation. Though I think this off topic thread is getting off topic? Unless we start comparing the events to the fight against the knights templar after they had gained too much power. Wink
The pen is mightier than the sword, especially since it can get past security and be stabbed it into a jugular.
This site would be better if everytime I clicked submit... I got to hear a whip crack!
My collection: Various Blades & Conan related
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 2,689

PostPosted: Mon 02 Jul, 2007 3:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Totally agreed, Robin. As for the mythical bogeyman thing--regardless of whether they were able to do those deeds or not, there is no doubt whatsoever that they deliberately cultivated such an image. A bit like the way the SEALs or the British Paras like to present themselves as murderous maniacs who goes everywhere armed to the teeth, even in bed.
View user's profile Send private message
Luka Tic





Joined: 25 Mar 2007

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Fri 28 Mar, 2008 1:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Most medieval armies were consisted of men at arms,who came from lower layers of society.
They were standard infantry,wearing everything from everyday clothing to heavy armour.
Most European knights of the 14th century wore heavy plate armour and brigandines over chainmaille.
However,this transitional armour did not completely cover a knight's body like the elaborate harnesses of the 16th century.
I don't know much about Japanese armour except that it "jumped" in quality when the Dutch started trading with Japan in the 17th century.
It is my opinion that in a battle between an army consisted of "only" European knights and an army consisted of "only" the Samurai,both sides would be equally matched.
The outcome of this battle would depend purely on the tactics deployed by their generals.


btw Why do some posters always drag ninjas into these discussions?

Luka
View user's profile
Werner Stiegler





Joined: 27 Feb 2007

Posts: 122

PostPosted: Fri 28 Mar, 2008 4:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

[quote="Risto Rautiainen"]
Lafayette C Curtis wrote:

Lighter in protection, I do think. Lighter in weight, can anyone tell us some facts?
Stone lists four types of armour protecting the armpit: Three covering the armpit from frontal attacks: Giyo-Yi-Ita, small leaf-shaped plates, rectangular Hata-Wo-no-ita and Sendan-no-ita . All of these acted as insignia of rank.
Two being worn under the Do: Manjiyuwa and Waki Biki.
View user's profile Send private message
Darryl Aoki





Joined: 12 Oct 2006

Posts: 93

PostPosted: Fri 28 Mar, 2008 8:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka Tic wrote:
Most medieval armies were consisted of men at arms,who came from lower layers of society.
They were standard infantry,wearing everything from everyday clothing to heavy armour.
Most European knights of the 14th century wore heavy plate armour and brigandines over chainmaille.
However,this transitional armour did not completely cover a knight's body like the elaborate harnesses of the 16th century.
I don't know much about Japanese armour except that it "jumped" in quality when the Dutch started trading with Japan in the 17th century.
It is my opinion that in a battle between an army consisted of "only" European knights and an army consisted of "only" the Samurai,both sides would be equally matched.
The outcome of this battle would depend purely on the tactics deployed by their generals.


btw Why do some posters always drag ninjas into these discussions?


A unit consisting solely of samurai would most likely be more of a "combined-arms" formation than a unit consisting solely of European knights, as the bow was still a respectable samurai weapon in the 14th Century. I can't recall any references to knights wielding bows in combat. A samurai unit would likely have the advantage of being able to choose between different engagement styles (or at least having the ability to engage the enemy at range.)

Of course, tactical, strategic, and doctrinal factors still count an awful lot, and there was enough variance in unit and leadership quality in both Europe and Japan that a victory could go either way.
View user's profile Send private message
John H





Joined: 08 May 2006

Posts: 60

PostPosted: Tue 01 Apr, 2008 8:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, in regards to the individual match-up, it looks like a TV crew in NYC is looking to explore this topic:

http://www.thearma.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23547
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
Joined: 20 May 2004

Posts: 599

PostPosted: Tue 01 Apr, 2008 11:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just to add my two cents.... there are two things that are undeniable. First Europeans on average are about 4 inches taller and wider. That means more bone to hang muscle on, so on average the European will have a strength advantage. This is of particular importance in a melee where there is a lot of pushing and shoving. One thing we can not account for is the skill and organization of the commanders in such a hypothetical situation, so we should assume they would be equal.

Second, as far as horses, siege weapons, personal weapons, armor, skill I call it it even. Both sides would have high and low skilled warriors as well as high and low quality weapons. The one thing that the Europeans have that the Japanese do not is shields. This is not to say polearms can not match up against shields.... in the case of the Japanese they will have had not training in how to fight against shields and that is a significant factor. The Europeans on the other hand would have training against all Japanese weapon forms.

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Bennison N




Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 416

PostPosted: Wed 02 Apr, 2008 4:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

"Ninja" were often used in siege action as well. They would enter the besieged area and have a look around while no-one was looking. This was apparently very common in historical Japanese sieges.

Japanese Pirates often raided towns and they amassed quite large forces at certain times. These pirates would possibly have faced many different cultures as a result of this raiding. They were very successful and widely feared, leading me to believe they would've fared well in these "International" encounters.

Hideyoshi (Toyotomi sama) never really stood a chance in his bid to invade Korea. The Chinese were far too strong at that time. He would've kicked himself if he knew that it would eventually be GIVEN to Japan in 1910. The reason he retreated wasn't because his navy was poorly run at all... It was because his navy was out-classed, out-equipped and out-fought by the Koreans. I think it's the 5000 won bill that shows the guy who made it all happen... The Turtle Ships of the Panakseon class, or Geobukseon (거북선), and Admiral Yi Sun-sin. There were 5 types of cannon on these boats, some of them said to be able to shoot reasonably accurately to half a kilometre.

I have a custom-but-traditionally-made suit of Japanese armour, mengu and all, and some very nice Japanese swords, too. Why don't one of you European Middle Age enthusiasts suit up and we'll have a match? I mean, it won't really be helpful in settling this debate, me not actually being a samurai, and you not actually being a knight, but wouldn't it be lots of fun?

This will be a standing offer... Any time anyone wants to have a match like this, email me.

"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius

अजयखड्गधारी
View user's profile Send private message
Jonathan Eells





Joined: 09 Dec 2007

Posts: 79

PostPosted: Wed 02 Apr, 2008 6:16 am    Post subject: Yeah, how about Ninjas versus Berserkers?         Reply with quote

If you're going to have a fantasy battle, why not put the Ninjas against the Berserkers? I'm going to put my money - and put it BIG time, a major position - on the Berserkers "whom steel could not bite". Sword impervious psychotically enraged Norsemen towering over tiny Ninja types? Forget the lack of any known specialized training for the Berserkers, the Ninjas would be flailing away on them to no effect while inexorably falling under savage blows to the tops of their highly trained heads.

Dude, I totally see this. I got a friend in Hollywood, and we could get this green lighted easy. It's Predator Vs. Alien but with Ninjas and Vikings. Rad! Razz Razz Razz
View user's profile Send private message
Bennison N




Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 416

PostPosted: Wed 02 Apr, 2008 4:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am willing to put money on the Shinobi winning against Berserkers. That's if you ever saw a Ninja Army (even the Army that faced Oda-sama wasn't all Ninja, there was at least the Daimyo, and his retainer Bushi), and if such an Army would fight in a "battle" as we define one. My bet is that they would be more likely to adopt guerilla tactics than risk a pitched battle.

For one thing, what I know of Ninja tactics (even rumoured attacks during WW2) tells me that they would send their best assassin/s to kill the Viking commander/s, most likely while he/they slept in camp, perhaps even stealing his/their heads and weapons to show to the enemy later for perceived psychological effect. Maybe they would send an entire unit to kill as many as possible... This would be done in as silent a manner as humanly possible, under the cover of darkness or a distraction, and would be accompanied by poisoning the main Viking water source/s and/or food source/s.

The Ninja would use poisoned weapons, and throw darts and fire very accurate arrows from a safe distance, taunting to draw the enemy in. They would make sure to choose the battleground and put many nasty traps and ambushes all along and through the area, both on the field and the more obvious routes to get there. Ninja knowledge of poisons is quite developed, and they are free from the restraints of Bushido, and so they WOULD use poison. A Berserker rage would only serve to spread it quicker through the body...

I'd really like to watch it, though... Especially once some of the more resilient Hersirs hit the Ninja line... Awesome.

"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius

अजयखड्गधारी
View user's profile Send private message
Jonathan Eells





Joined: 09 Dec 2007

Posts: 79

PostPosted: Wed 02 Apr, 2008 7:06 pm    Post subject: Poor form!!!         Reply with quote

Oooh! Those wascawwy Ninjas! Traps? Poisons??? Pre-emptive beheadings?!?

Poor form.

But your prognosis is still a well argued one. It sounds like ordinary Vikings would do better against the Ninjas, since the run of the mill sort of Norseman was much craftier and more likely to fight by stealth and deceit as well. Why fight, when you can win by trickery and be gone before anybody could say "Bob's Your Uncle"...
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Samurai vs. Knights in pitched battle
Page 4 of 6 Reply to topic
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2020 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum