Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

Nat Lamb wrote:
Upon using google, the book is actually *Achilles* in Vietnam. Author is Jonathan Shay, and after a quick check I found that he gets a mention on the Beserker page on Wikipedia (for whatever that is worth).
If I understand his thesis correctly (psychology is not my field) I think he would argue that PTSD does not necessarily have to be grounded in fear. He seems to put forward that it is an adaption based on a stressful situation or incident which may well be helpful for that situation, but manipulative for others (to use an example from an Australian song, throwing yourself into the dirt when you hear a chopper might help you survive Vietnam, but is a maladaptive behavior if the only chopper in your area is the channel 9 traffic copter)
The beserks would seem to fit that description, flipping out into a bloodthirsty hulk-out in response to a perceived threat might be quite useful if you are the Jarl's shock troops, but would be pretty maladaptive behavior for day to day life.


Interesting. Have to say that beside "fear" Lars R. Møller also states its important for the psyche of the soldier how they are perceived back home and the circumstances on how you leave your unit, especially if you are suddenly parted with them because of injury or being send home.
After war maladaptive behavior is not post traumatic stress disorder per se, only if they persist. Some kind of transition period is needed for all soldiers I would guess (or else everyone would have PTSD!?).

Berserks are described very negatively in the sagas (but they are written by Christians after all).
I'll try here a hypothesis of why they are portrayed in such negative manner (besides being pagan which is bad enough):
When the leaders become Christians they perhaps start more and more to neglect warriors from the Berserker families (being Odin followers)?
Egil Skallagrimsson's grand-dad was a shape-changer called Kveldulf (evening-wolf, so he is a Ulfhedinn a wolf-warrior), who was perceived as turning into a wolf in the evening. So Egil was from a renowned wolf-berserker family.

If they can't find a place in a King's or Jarl's hird any more, what then. Could explain the professional provoker-duelists in Iceland. You could say you create a class of "Ronin". Animal shape-changing families with no outlet for all their rage than going around causing trouble and killing farmers in duels.
No wonder people would start to hate them.....

Once they were elite warriors around famous Kings where Skjalds made poetry about these warband's exploits; now they are "fallen men" despised by all; which just makes them even more angry and eager to kill someone in a duel.

So some becomes so "fallen" that they strike out on the local farm-population perceiving them as enemies (raiding, killing, raping) causing them to became exiled Niddings (outlaws) retreating into the wilderness. Heroes in sagas often kill troublesome berserkers.

Once they were used to go into any farm and be treated like heroes (real warriors doesn't work, they are supposed to be feed by a hero-worshipping population, or Kings with feasts in halls).
I seem to remember (correct me if I'm wrong) Egil Skallagrimson being a guest at a farm (they actually do take him in), but as the farmer doesn't seem REALLY happy to have him Egil Skallagrimson cuts off his nose (he states he is merciful, because his wife will need him on the farm; otherwise he would have killed him or cut of his arms; can't remember the specifics). You are supposed to hero-worship them (in their world-view). Odin in the mythology also ran around in disguise killing people that didn't meet the standards of guest friendship; and Egil is an Odin warrior.

So not so much real combat related PTSD for berserkers, more like wounded pride of no longer being wanted, worshiped and admired; but being obsolete, hated and despised (and having the wrong religion as well). They were full of rage to start with, now all that rage will make most of them slide towards being fully animals (what socially a Nidding is -> a non-human anyone can kill without retribution).

Some berserkers started killing already as children - it was what they did: Raging. It significant that these traits are explained to run in bloodlines; not being caused of combat at all. You are a berserker, since you dad was a berserker.
To them their behavior was heroic and manly - not with Christianity. It doesn't help that Iceland doesn't have any enemy borders you can cross to attack someone and come back being a hero with spoils. If nobody will hire you - then you can't escape Iceland either.
A berserker having PTSD would be one that suddenly couldn't find pleasure in killing anymore or freezing in combat when he should feel joy - that would be traumatic for him. Egil's never have problems like those. When he is old, blind and incontinent he is still killing (the two thralls that helped him bury his treasure - and Egil made sure the secret of the hiding place stayed secret).

Egil Skallagrimsson's dad (Skalla-Grim) actually tried to kill Egil when he was 12 years old, because he entered into wolfish rage. Egil was only save by a thrall, his nurse; but she and Egil's best friend is killed by his dad. In true viking style revenge; Egil then kills his dad's favourite thrall at dinner. "Peace" is then restored in the Berserker home.
Normal behavior for them in their world-view. Growing up in a Berserker family would make you "different" in the eyes of others, but I don't think you can call it PTSD.
Dan Howard wrote:
Nobody has mentioned ransom either. It is a bit hard to ask someone about their family if they are dead.


Good point Dan.
At least in the late Middle Ages you could strike jackpot by taking someone noble prisoner where you could make a lot of money by ransoming them. It would be very stupid to risk your life for nothing (by just killing them), if you could take them prisoner instead.
When was it possible to take someone prisoner. In the heat of battle you retreat back into your own rear with your prisoner? Did you have to be of some standing yourself before that was possible, or would someone of higher ranking "take over" your prisoner after the battle?
Likely huge differences from nation to nation and period to period how that dynamics worked.
Could a conscripted peasant take a count prisoner on the battlefield? Or would the count rather die than this humiliation or just say that he was taken prisoner by the first noble he saw afterwards?

The ransom-system actually safeguarded (to some extent) nobles as they often could state their famous name and yield and then being fairly certain they would survive. Off course it doesn't protect you against tons of arrows during combat.
Common soldiers would be more at risk to just be massacred if ending up on the losing side, especially if laying wounded on the battlefield (they are not worth a lot; but might be worth at least something - relatively good money for another common soldier?).
Jeffrey Faulk wrote:
I would not read too much into late sources like Tertullian, coloured as they would be with Christian prejudices against the 'heretical' pagan past.

That said, while gender dynamics of the ancient past could be a very interesting study, I'm not sure that this is quite the place to discuss that topic. I'll let Nathan or Chad determine that, though.

I'm also not sure that the ancient Greeks would have been aware that ants have a 'queen'. I could be wrong, though.

I would not be surprised at all if Achilles' Myrmidons wore feathers on their helmets as a crest; a pair of feathers could certainly resemble an ant's antennae. I would wager that the name was derived more from a certain physical similarity (black armour, black ants), or as a jest against relatively young warriors in the midst of an army of older career soldiers, than any actual perception of ant social behaviour.


True, Tertullian can be very polemic, yet he actually grew up a Roman pagan and converted to Christianity as an adult, so he might actually know what he talks about.

The ancient Greeks would have known about Bee-keeping at least (it's very old and was know by hunter gatherers at least according to linguistic studies), so I would be a fairly straight-forward assumption that they also know that social insects (bees, wasps, ants) have a hive lead by a big queen.

Feathers painted black is certainly an option!

I would think that its more the other way around -> they are the "Myrmidons" and then they dress like ants to empathize that fact, so they are recognizable on the battlefield.
Like you are a Wolf-warrior and thus you choose to look more "wolfish" on the battlefield by dressing in wolf-skins.
In the Indo-European world you had "warbands" of young people growing up together in the wilderness forming a pack (that is kept in Sparta longer than anywhere else in Greece) and fighting, raiding and stealing food like a pack in the wilderness and on enemy territory. They are kept out of their own society, which comprises of older men that have returned from their youth-roaming and settled down as farmers building a family.
What kind of pack was denoted by the animal chosen. In this period you didn't have "career soldiers" as such.
All the tribe's men were off course warriors and some youth packs in fact never returned to settle and become farmer citizens (who would be the real soldiers of the tribe in case of war), but kept roaming looking for eternal fame and keep taking in new young pack members lead by the older (though socially still "youth") veterans.
Apparently in many Indo-European groups you were first allowed to settle as a farmer and marry and get children, until you and your "warband" had conducted one or several deep raiding campaigns into enemy territory (for Scythians and other Iranian speaking people).
If your pack actually conquered an area and held it, they would sit as overlords over the local population and taking local women as brides and then in effect create a new tribe. The Roman origin myth is interesting in that regard, since they are an all-male society lead by Romulus and Remus to begin with (a youth warband). They have to acquire the Sabine women to actually settle as farmers, procreate and thus they create a new tribe at the Tiber, who we know as Romans.

Achilles actually have the choice:
Don't go and settle with a family. Become loved by your family, but eventually forgotten OR go to war (with his Myrmidons) and die young, but win eternal fame. Achilles makes sure he and his men are the first to land on the Trojan coast, he wants eternal fame.
Myrmidons weren't dressed in black. Only their ships were black. Their gear was just like all of the other Achaeans. Their armour and helmets were made from bright shiny bronze.
Dan Howard wrote:
Myrmidons weren't dressed in black. Only their ships were black. Their gear was just like all of the other Achaeans. Their armour and helmets were made from bright shiny bronze.


Thanks, Dan.
So ship being blacks could be a sign tribute to their "black ants" origin OR perhaps just the colour to signify the ships from that Island.

Checking the background of the Myrmidons is it connected with the legend of Aeacus:

The name Myrmidons seems clearly NOT to have been based on having a warband with an "animal" as their pack-"totem" for lack of a better word to call it; but based on an origin-myth of the people of the Island of Aegina.

Aeacus was the son of Zeus and Aegina (or Zeus and Europa according to others). Anyways he is a half-god.
Aeacus was on the Island of Aegina when he was born and it was uninhabited. Then Zeus changed all the ants into men and for that reason the people there was called Myrmidons.
Another version (Ovid) that the Island was ravaged by a dragon send by Hera and Zeus repopulated it with humans transformed from Ants.
Whatever version. Ants are transformed into men.

Aeacus became the father of Peleus, who married the sea-nymph, (Nereid) Thetis and got Achilles.
Achilles then inherited the leadership over the Myrmidons from his father and grandfather - as a royal line of (Petty?)-Kings over the Island.
So this is clearly farmer-citizen soldiers and not a youth warband.
So they would in theory be dressed as all other "Greek" citizen soldiers (in bronze armour) - as was the case from what you said, Dan.

Could explain why I found it so unique unique in Indo-European comparisons of youth "warbands" - since it is almost certainly not :lol:
(Though one could never discount a warband taking control over an area and becoming the new overlords of an area, but that should perhaps to reflected with much clarity in the origin myth).
To adress the topic of instant deaths, Id say its really complex topic.

On one hand severe leg injury clearly incapacitates a man and even lesser wounds can put him out of combat for the period of the batte, while on the other, injury can be hardly noticed outright and the man can die days after the battle.

One more thing to consider, that Ive though about much reading some battle accounts - if the body of men sustaining casualties doesnt break, it seems customary not to leave anyone behind, its hard to tell what it encompasses for specific periods, units and situations, but especially in examples of unbroken infantry, these might carry all their wounded, who show at least some signs of life and maybe even as many dead as they can recollect with them. To be specific, Id cite several possible examples - Marignan, Dreux, Cerisole, Omdurman - in these cases infantry formations were charged by cavalry repeatedly and at least in cases, in which the body of men retreated, casualties produced and defined as number of dead bodies left over after their retreat might be very low despite vivid description of men being wounded on both sides. Omdurman might be the clearest example, most eyewitnesses describe 20-50 men Dervishes left and 21st lancers charge and consequent carbine fire. Certainly, in such a press, men would cut wildly around and most wounds wouldnt have a potential to kill on the spot, yet many might have proven fatal after hours from bleeding out an organ failure, or days, maybe weeks from infection. As this body was later shelled heavily by artillery boats producing casualties of several times the magnitude effortlessly, it would be impossible to assess. In the example of the battle of Dreux, Swiss were repeadly traversed by Huguenot gendarmes, while being shot at, plus had to deal with attacking Landsknechts producing supposedly 300 immediate dead form these combined, yet the actualy and eventual loss might be as high as 2000 from men dying of wounds, or surviving with incapacitating injury.

So to sum up: loosing side, that routs is open to be butchered so any number cited simply doesnt say anything about how quick the death was, while on the other hand, if a body of men sustains great casualties, the immediate effect might be hard to judge from the recount of dead they leave on the spor, their real casualties might be several times higher due to all the not immediately dead, or even most of the dead they can collect being brought away from battle, or from the multitude of surviving with crippling injuries, or dying later from wounds, that seemed light on the spot, While many might survive despite being injures multitude of times without any functional deficit.

So Id say the only statement Im definitely sure of is, that noone knows for sure and one example would not be enough.

A little off-topic,, I personally would really be interested in examples of units sustaining heavy losses without breaking and how they handled their wounded and dead in these examples, if it was more common to leave them be, even injured, or to collect as many dead and wounded as possible and for what reasons. My personal idea is the second option is more propable from examples Ive seen.
On the subject of fighting with adrenaline, Bernal Diaz Del Castillo wrote about a number of times that the Spanish conquistadors found themselves badly outnumbered and had to continue fighting despite most or even all of them being wounded, many multiple times.

For instance describing a battle during the retreat from Mexico City:

"The level ground, however, was uncommonly favorable for the manœuvres of our horse, which every now and then gallopped at full speed in upon the enemy, and then retired, to watch another favorable opportunity. Although both horse and rider were severely wounded, yet they continued to fight most valiantly. It seemed as if we who formed the cavalry had double our usual strength; for, though we were covered with wounds, and each moment received fresh ones, yet we never gave them thought, but kept dashing in upon the foe without intermission."

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/32474/32474-h/...ER_CXXVIII



He gives some numbers for one of the first expeditions he was a part of, involving 110 men:

During an early skirmish with the natives 15 spaniards were wounded by arrows, 2 of which later died.

At their next stop they entered a native village and were attacked on all sides, forcing them to fight their way back to the boats. After the fight 57 Spaniards had been left behind and of the survivors "None of us had escaped without two, three, or four wounds. Our captain had as many as twelve, and there was only one single soldier who came off whole." The author himself was wounded three times "one of which was in my left side and very dangerous, the arrow having pierced to the very bone."

They sailed away for a while but were suffering badly due to lack of fresh water, so the 20 men whose wounds had healed best had to go ashore where they had found a stream. The natives attacked them again both on land and in canoes. The attackers were beaten back this time but re-wounded at least 11 more Spaniards, and 1 man went missing.

After arriving back in cuba he writes at out of the 110 original party 70 of them, including the captain, were missing or eventually died of their wounds.
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

Page 3 of 3

Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum




All contents © Copyright 2003-2006 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Full-featured Version of the forum