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armour
Its indeed difficult to determine what kind of armour he wears over his mail.
He is also left handed or is it an artistic choice to let the sword hang on the right side? It seems to be to long to be drawn with the right hand.

Im curious, since the 15th century, Mamluk warriors started to wear more mail and plate. how would that work versus arrows?
Re: armour
Sander Alsters wrote:
Im curious, since the 15th century, Mamluk warriors started to wear more mail and plate. how would that work versus arrows?

I imagine it would have worked well against arrows. But I dont think that the plates would be as good as mail at withstanding spear thrusts. It would be interesting to see a test done on this.
Re: armour
Sander Alsters wrote:
Its indeed difficult to determine what kind of armour he wears over his mail.
He is also left handed or is it an artistic choice to let the sword hang on the right side? It seems to be to long to be drawn with the right hand.

These things aren't photos. The artist may want to show the fine clothing worn by the character, or move something so that his face can be more clearly seen, or any number of other alterations and stylistic conventions that make contemporary illustrations poor evidence for technical details. Iconographical evidence can only be used as support for other evidence such as documents and archaeological finds. If there is no supporting evidence then any conclusions based solely on these drawings amount to little more than speculation.
It's worth noting that Russell Mitchell definitely claims protective advantage for scale and lamellar armors over mail in "Light Cavalry, Heavy Cavalry, Horse Archers, Oh My!" I'm not completely convinced either way, but the subject remains highly contested.
Benjamin H. Abbott wrote:
It's worth noting that Russell Mitchell definitely claims protective advantage for scale and lamellar armors over mail in "Light Cavalry, Heavy Cavalry, Horse Archers, Oh My!" I'm not completely convinced either way, but the subject remains highly contested.

Well one of the advantages of wearing lamellar over mail is the shock absorbtion the leather would provide. Considering the Mongols made extensive use of the mace, the Mamluks would have no doubt wanted their armour to provide reasonable protection against such a weapon.
Armour
True, mace was much in use as were axes. Swords came as the third weapon of choice of the Mamluk. What would be the effect of iron lammelar over mail? some say its an overkill, but in terms of shock absorbtion it would work very well.
The heavy iranian cav was wearing iron lammelar versus the mongols. Apparently they painted it in various colours. Even engraved the plates. Dont know if they wore it in combination with mail.

Nicolle had a theory that the Mamluks also wore lammelar up until and partially during the 15th century, because the armour from the dead was re-used by others until it broke. During the 15th you see gradully more plates interinked with mail. He said that one reason was that with a good sword blow you could cut through the lacings of lammelar. One of the reasons they started to wear plates interlinkd with mail. They wouldnt break that easy and they would have the benifit of both armours.
No you can't cut through enough lamellar laces to make any difference on the battlefield. Go back to the first page of this and you'll see why mail replaced lamellar lacing. Sakakibara Kozan said it perfectly. Lacing creates all sorts of problems from excessive weight when it is wet to hygeine problems caused by impregnated lice, ants, mud, and blood.
Re: Armour
Sander Alsters wrote:
True, mace was much in use as were axes. Swords came as the third weapon of choice of the Mamluk. What would be the effect of iron lammelar over mail? some say its an overkill, but in terms of shock absorbtion it would work very well.

This combination would no doubt afford its wearer excellent protection, especially against arrows and blunt trauma. However at the same time, mobility would be compromised as the armour would be quite heavy. But considering the Mamluks were not pursuing "steppe tactics" of hit and run, the trade off of speed for protection would probably have been acceptable to them.
Samuel Bena wrote:

EXPERIENCE OF BATTLE: DYRRAKHION, 1081

An episode from the battle of Dyrrakhion in 1081 recounted by Anna Komnene regarding her father, Emperor Alexios I, shows just how much protection Roman cavalry armour in the period could afford. Separated from the army, Alexios was attacked with lances from one side by three Norman knights. Since Alexios was protected by layers of padding, iron lamellar and possibly also mail, their weapons caused him no injury, but served only to partially unseat him, with the entanglement of his spurs in his horse's trapping preventing him from falling entirely. Another group of Normans charged at him in a similar way from the other side, also driving their spears at his body, yet they only succeeded in pushing him back into his saddle. At this point Alexios made his escape (Anna claims his horse bolted) with several of the Normans' lances still entangled in his epilorikion...


Just found the relevant passage on Fordham. It was translated by Elizabeth A. S. Dawes.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/AnnaComnena-Alexiad00.html

Alexiad [4.6.110]

The battle did not come to an end because the Emperor still maintained his resistance, therefore three of the Latins, one of whom was Amicetas already mentioned, the second Peter, son of Aliphas, as he himself asserted, and a third, not a whit inferior to these two, took long spears in their hands and at full gallop dashed at the Emperor. Amicetas missed the Emperor because his horse swerved a little; the second man's spear the Emperor thrust aside with his sword and then bracing his arm, struck him on the collarbone and severed his arm from his body. Then the third aimed straight at his face, but Alexius being of firm and steadfast mind was not wholly dismayed, but with his quick wit grasped in the flash of an instant the thing to do, and when he saw the blow coming, threw himself backwards on to his horse's tail. Thus the point of the spear only grazed the skin of his face a little and then, hitting against the rim of the helmet, tore the strap under the chin which held it on and knocked it to the ground. After this the Frank rode past the man he thought he had hurled from his horse, but the latter quickly pulled himself up again in his saddle and sat there calmly without having lost a single weapon.

The first lance missed him completely because his horse moved.
Alexios parried the second lance with his sword
The third lance missed because Alexios ducked out of the way.

No mention of armour at all, except for his helmet being knocked off his head. Dawson's account is a garbled version of two completely separate battles written by two different authors, one by Comnena and the other by Psellos. Yet another example of why most Osprey books are not worth the wasted space on the bookshelf.
For completeness here is the other account that Dawson mangled. It is Michael Psellos' Chronographia and talks about an attack on Isaac Komnenos in 1057 AD (24 years before Dyrrakhion).

Some of our men saw him (they were Scyths from the Taurus district, and not more than four at that) and attacked him with lances, driving in on both flanks, but the iron shafts proved ineffective... Meanwhile he budged in neither direction, for as they pushed him with equal force this way and that, he remained poised and balanced in the middle. To Isaac this seemed a favourable omen, when attacks from right and left both failed to dislodge him...

Full cite: Michael Psellos, Chronographia, E.R.A Sewter (trans), (New Haven: Yale University Press), 1953. VII.13

Even this passage doesn't mention whether any armour is being worn so Dawson apparently made it up unless there is another part of the text that I missed that describes the armour worn by Isaac. There is nothing in either passage about getting spurs entangled in trapping or lances getting caught in the epilorikion either. The fact that Isaac was unharmed after being hit simultaneously by two lances suggests that he is wearing some sort of armour but it is impossible to say what kind it is. IMO mail is just as likely as lamellar.
armour
Im curious, are there any proper tests done regarding mail and lammelar versus arrows and lances? Not reffering to all the backyard tests you can find at Youtube.
Don't know about lamellar but the only mail test worth looking at is in Williams' book. Nobody else has tried to replicate a museum example. One of Williams test pieces was an actual museum example, another was made by Erik.
Dan, out of curiosity, could you sketch and cost a decent Arrows vs. X experiment? There are enough enthusiasts really interested in the question that a decent proposal might be able to gather adequate donations (or get picked up by Mythbusters or something).
Seconded
The first step is to select an appropriate museum piece and get permission to study it.
Second step is to pay for testing of the mechanical and metallurgical properties of the links.
Third step is to find someone who can supply wire with the same properties and purchase it.
Fourth is to pay someone who is capable of making multiple patches of this mail using appropriate tools and techniques.

We have already exceeded the budget that Mythbusters has for any given show.

Then you'd have to research and write up a comprehensive discussion on suitable underpadding. Since we don't have surviving examples to make an exact replica, you'd have to speculate on what might be the most approprite material, weave, thickness, quilting style, etc. You'd probably have to make several different pieces and test the mail with each one to see which combinations work the best.
And that’s just the armor side of it. The real question is how much force needs to be delivered by X projectile to get through X armor.

You would need multiple bows, draw strengths and designs, longbow, recurve, crossbow etc. You would need bodkins, hardened bodkins, broadhead’s, etc. Then the shaft needs various weights of shafts for the arrow as mass of arrow and arrowhead have a direct impact on energy imparted to the arrow and energy delivered to target. There are so many types of bows and strength of bows, combined with arrows, shafts, fletching’s that to get a proper test done you would need to test all, against all the variable armors. There is no benefit in testing a flight arrow launched from a 35 lb bow carrying a ‘broadhead’ at any decent armor.

Out of curiosity has is there any way to judge the relative cost of the lammelar vs. the chain? Essentially what is the cost to repair a bunch of popped links in the chain vs buying a new set of cloth armor or lammelar? When armor gets hit with any arrow, the combination of the chain, cloth etc will ideally keep the wearer safe, but you will almost certainly damage the armor be it popping a link in the chain or poking a hole in the cloth/lammelar. The outer layer will absorb the most force from the arrow and only after that is defeated will the arrow deliver the remaining force to the lower layer of armor. Logic would dictate that if damage to one layer of armor or another is inevitable, then you will select the least valuable armor in terms of cost and ease of replacement to take the brunt of the damage. Naturally this will be weighed against the need for mobility and effectiveness against other types of attacks…
Cost of repair is not particularly important. Anyone who can afford these types of armour have plenty of servants to do this work or have access to dedicated armourers supplied by the state. Speed is not really important either unless one expects to fight again the next day and there are plenty of ways to make temporary repairs in these cases.
Mamluk mail dimensions
Does anyone know of any articles that discuss the dimensions of the rings used in Mamluk mail? I am not talking about the mail plate suits which seem to be relatively light. As far as I know there are three Mamluk mail coats (asides from mail and plate) dating from the 15th and early 16th century. It would be interesting to learn more about their construction and ring sizes.

Here is an example of one of them


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Dan Howard wrote:
The first step is to select an appropriate museum piece and get permission to study it.
Second step is to pay for testing of the mechanical and metallurgical properties of the links.
Third step is to find someone who can supply wire with the same properties and purchase it.
Fourth is to pay someone who is capable of making multiple patches of this mail using appropriate tools and techniques.

We have already exceeded the budget that Mythbusters has for any given show.

Then you'd have to research and write up a comprehensive discussion on suitable underpadding. Since we don't have surviving examples to make an exact replica, you'd have to speculate on what might be the most approprite material, weave, thickness, quilting style, etc. You'd probably have to make several different pieces and test the mail with each one to see which combinations work the best.


not neccesarily, if some of the legwork is already done, it might just make it economically feasible

http://www.levantia.com.au/military/KKK.html that article is about the likely nature of byantine armours like the Kremasmata Kabadion and klibanion,
in particular there is this part about comparing the maille klibanon verses maille

Quote:
My reconstructed klibania have proven to be completely resistant to thrown and thrust spears, to swords and even proof against arrows.(31) By comparison mail is proof against none of these attacks, unless they are light or glancing, and scale armour is little better. Kolias proposes the superiority of the lorikion [46] over the klibanion and its use by officers solely on the basis of their fewer numbers in the ship complements specified in De Cerimoniis.(32) He overlooks the fact that the author states that the light form of lorikion are for the use of men who do not partake of hand to hand combat; siphon crews, helmsmen and lookouts.(33) This is significant. Even if the unattributed 'common' lorikia are for officers, it does not imply their superiority. On the contrary there could be advantages in supplying officers with an inferior armour. The Byzantine army was not an ancient or European war-band. The job of its officers was to command, not to lead
This test is just as useless as all the others. He never even attempted to get a decent replica of mail. Trying to perform any kind of comparison is a waste of time. He erroneously concludes that mail is inferior and tries to find justification as to why it was worn by the more wealthy soldiers. Officers could wear any armour they wanted. The most logical reason why they chose mail is simply because they considered it superior to the available alternatives.

He also repeats the bollocks about Alexois being pushed out of his saddle and back on again by lance attacks. I've already shown that the account says no such thing. Nor does Comnena or any other Byzantine text ever say that lamellar was worn over mail.

On top of that I don't think his lamellar reconstruction is particularly sensible. IMO this one is far more reasonable
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisandpeter/...ellar.html
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