I'm by no means an expert on this subject or era, but it interests me.

I don't think one can overlook other things going on in history and culture at the same time. According to some sources I have read, curved blades were already in use in Eastern Europe going back before the 12th century, but in some of these regions were replaced by the typical straight cruciform sword of the medieval era along with the spread of Western Catholic influence through cultural contact, and later miltary contact in the Northern Crusades.

Conversely, as the crussding era wained overall, and Knights were replaced by professional soldiers, I think this removed the pressure for European fighting men to carry swords that look like a crucifix. This may have opened the door to trying other types of sword, even curved swords that might have seemed un acceptably 'heathenish' in previous centuries. (Note this alone does not explain why they became so popular in later times).

On a different note - wouldn't it be rather risky to make a deep thrust from a moving horse, i.e., wouldn't the thruster run the risk of breaking his sword or having it wrenched from his hand while passing by? Is there some technique to avoid this from happening? I have often thought this must be a factor in real cavalry fighting, but have only seen one reference to this in my readings.

The following is a quote from Richard Dellar's "THE 1796 PATTERN LIGHT CAVALRY SWORD, Part One – Troopers’ Swords" from Classic Arms & Militaria Vol. XIV No.1 (which is available in the link I provided earlier in the thread):

Quote:

The origins of the 1796 are equally well-known. In 1795 a young major in the 16th Light Dragoons, John Gaspard Le Marchant, had just returned from service in the Flanders campaigns of 1794-5 where he had been impressed by the professionalism, horsemanship and skills of the foreign troops he had encountered, in particular the Austrians whose hussar heritage stretched back for more than a century and who at that time were regarded as the finest cavalry in Europe. By comparison the British cavalry looked ill-equipped and ill-trained. Le Marchant set about remedying that situation and the result was twofold : first, a new sword drill (Rules & Regulations for the Sword Exercise of the Cavalry, published by the War Office on 1 December 1796) and second, a new sword, the pattern 1796 light cavalry sabre. Le Marchant wanted a sword with a hilt stripped of all superfluous weight and a shorter blade (than the 36 in. blade of the then current 1788 pattern) in order to achieve better balance. Le Marchant wrote “Without a doubt the expertly used scimitar blades of the Turks, Mamelukes, Moors and Hungarians have proved that a light sword, if equally applicable to a cut or thrust, is preferable to any other”. Le Marchant’s comments are notable for the fact that he set out to design a sword that was equally able to cut or thrust. However, the end result, of course, was a sword that proved to be a supreme cutting weapon but which could only perform the thrust poorly if at all.

Hi Johan, I was puzzled about your post because it begins withe phrase

Sorry if I'm comign off a bit strong here, but the 1796 American Cavalry saber type happens to be one of my all time favorites.

You seemed to be clearly expressing the British 1796 as a favorite yet designate it as American not British. Much of the rest of my reply was offering both example of American use regarding the two patterns with an aside regarding what quite a few regard as far as good vs bad recanting of histories.

Cheers

GC

I recall reading once that there was a long stretch of Japanese history that was relatively peaceful compared to most, and during this era the Samurai's katanas became more of a status symbol than a weapon of war. Blades that were nearly straight became fashionable and were popular for their superior point control. Eventually the clan rivalries heated up again, and as Japan fell back into perpetual warfare it was discovered that these straight blades transmitted undue shock to the user when slashing armored opponents, and were quickly discarded in favor of the more traditional curved ones.

Johan – concerning the repo’s they may look good but they don’t feel right. The point of balance is off and considering the Cold Steel 1796 it is too heavy which makes it unruly and a greater potential for self injury. It may be ok for back yard cutting but you don't want to use it in a fight...Finding a decent military weight sabre that is useable in fencing/sparring/training is a problem at this point.

Glen – My comments about adopting the curved blade go back further. If you look at the average blade in use in Europe from 0-1600 the most predominate blade in use is strait. By records of the swords we see there is about a 90%-10% strait to curved-cutting blade ratio in Europe while in other parts of the world it is more like 60%-40%. By the 19th century we do have about the same ratio, and the argument over which is more dominate the cut or thrust had been going for a few hundred years.

So when considering the relative lack of use Europe had of a curved blade prior to the firearms it does seem like the sabre had a dramatic increase in popularity. This may have been because the church dictated cruciform swords or from the fact that curved cutting weapons were virtually useless against chain and heavier armor, but perfectly useful against lighter armor.

As for the modern era, the Sabre has a better lobby group, just like the Katana...

The hussar article was a nice read.

The Wikipedia on tulwar and 1796 saber “The blade profile of the British Pattern 1796 light cavalry sabre is similar to some examples of the Indian talwar, and expert opinion has suggested that the Indian sword may have contributed to the design of the British sabre.” is deeply misguided.
Persian scimitar is the grand daddy of sabers. Saber (along with Islam) was adopted by mongols during the invasion of the Middle East. When mongols invaded India they were already wielding Persian weaponry and tulwar was an adaptation of mongolian sabers.
Just as Chagatai mongols were invading India, Jochi mongols were invading Eastern Europe. Hungarian and Polish sabers are the result of "cultural exchange". 1796 British saber is just a standardized version of sabers used in Eastern Europe.
Saber's versatility and cutting power give it an edge over any straight blade. However, mastering saber moves requires a lot of time. European military of the XVIIIs - XXs century did not have time to train swordsmen. Teaching basic blocks, slashes, thrusts, and lunges to young farm boys was simple.

Yes, the fact is that rather than imposing their own culture, the Mongol often adopted the one of the land and people they conquer (ie that made the Moghol culture in India).
On the other hand, as the mongol empire spreaded widely, it made possible more cultural exchanges, trades, and travel than ever, and in some way had an indirect effect on crafts interbreedings.

one of the last european issue swords actually carried into combat was the dutch klewang. a curved sword.


my solingen made variant.

numbers of these were issued to the U.S. Marines in ww2 from stock carried to australia & i've recently seen a picture of a squad of marines on guadalcanal , three of whom were carrying dutchies.

cropped portion, he's having a nap by the way...notice pierced klewang guard showing on pack.

while no record has been mentioned of them being used in combat, they were favourably mentioned for cutting thru the jungle, and made great 'machetes'. they were also captured in quantity by the japanese, cut down and guards modified, and issued to japanese troops. the germans also used captured ones in their naval schnell boats in the english channel. they were also used in malasia and indonesia post ww2, again mostly for cutting thru vegetation.

the design was originally produced in solingen in 1898, then hembrug, and later by milsco in the US. mistakenly referred to as the 1917 cutlass, cold steel now makes a crude copy of this with a non-distally tapered blade, which throws off the balance and makes it seem heavy in the hand. cold steel also made a longer 'sabre' version of this, also badly balanced i hear. the real ones were phased out and relegated to ceremonial use in the early 1950's. one od the most copied and widely used sword patterns of recent history. and little known.

the phillipino marines still carry a sword into combat, the ginunting, another curved sword, which is used not only as a machete, but has recent use in actual combat, as moslem seperatists and the marines encountered each other by surprise in dense jungle., the ginunting proved it worth in hand to hand combat where a rifle , even an ak47 was too cumbersome to aim quickly at a close range target. some of the opposition were apparently substantially cut in half. the ginunting is unusual in being reverse curved,
marine one:

civilian:

Those swords look really nice :) especial the Dutch Klewang. I never new that swords have been carried in to combat so recently though I don't know how big the Philipino knife is.