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Al Muckart




Location: NZ
Joined: 27 Dec 2005

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PostPosted: Wed 04 Apr, 2007 11:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robin Smith wrote:
I have heard pigs fat was used, but am not sure if that is true or not. If it is, it must have been might smelly, under the hot Jerusalem sun...


Only relatively briefly. Lard will stop smelling once it's oxidised (finished going rancid) which takes between a few days and a few weeks depending on conditions.

I'd guess that practically any grease they could get their hands on was used, be that tallow, olive oil, lard, or whatever. If it was cheap and available in period I'd bet they used it to protect their kit.

--
Al.
http://wherearetheelves.net
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Bram Verbeek





Joined: 27 Mar 2007

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PostPosted: Thu 05 Apr, 2007 1:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A friend of mine uses a dishwasher to clean carparts, maybe for mail too?
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Elling Polden




Location: Bergen, Norway
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Apr, 2007 5:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hell, in the army we used tubed shrimp cheese(?) to clean the reciever of or M109 A3GN 155mm Howitzer.
It worked, but seriously wondered how someone came up with it...
Probabbly picked up the wrong tube...

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Robin Smith




Location: Louisiana
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Apr, 2007 6:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bram Verbeek wrote:
A friend of mine uses a dishwasher to clean carparts, maybe for mail too?

Possibly... Probably... I've heard of people using detergent, so I don't see why not. Detergent, soap, simple green degreaser. All of these require water and rinsing, so there is a significant chance of rusting if you don't dry thoroughly (especially around the rivet heads). I've used simple green and a rinse. But I had to roll it to get the light rust off. And that left it sandy. Vicious cycle....
Which is why I think the brake cleaner or carb cleaner is alot simpler. Just spray and poof; no oil....

A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Ville Vinje




Location: Uppsala
Joined: 20 Apr 2006

Posts: 142

PostPosted: Thu 05 Apr, 2007 6:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I AM SO STUPID..... Sad

Earlier today a run away and bought some break cleaner for my mail....Stupid as I am I bought just the brand I was warned about (CRC brakleen). A bit of the grease came of but there is still a lot left.

Of to buy some moore i guess...
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Robin Smith




Location: Louisiana
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Apr, 2007 7:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If its heavily coated, and you said it was, it might take a couple of cycles. Each time though, will strip more oil off. Make sure you give it time to fully evaporate before you pronounce it finished.
A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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James Barker




Location: Ashburn VA
Joined: 20 Apr 2005

Posts: 365

PostPosted: Thu 05 Apr, 2007 7:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have 2 GDFB shirts and I used degreaser and throw away towels to get it down to a light coat then I tossed the shirts in kitty litter to absorb the rest but the litter was then stuck to the shirt so I took a stiff brush and knocked off the litter. I then grilled them to a get the rest of the crap off the shirts.

There is no need for oil. If at one event you get some rust it will come off with wear at the next. I store my maille dry in a wool sack.

I think oiling shirts is crazy, it just makes a mess and I have never seen it work better at preventing rust than my dry method. Also graphite oils like WD 40 hold moisture in case you did not know, they are not rust preventers they are lubes for moving parts.

James Barker
Historic Life http://www.historiclife.com/index.html
Archer in La Belle Compagnie http://www.labelle.org/
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Robin Smith




Location: Louisiana
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Apr, 2007 7:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Agreed about the WD-40. I don't recommend it. Personally I use spray silicon, or ballistol.
The dry method may work where you are at James, but down here in the bayou, it don't cut it. My hauberk is nice and metallic looking, not orange. Most of the people who don't religiously take care of their maille like I do have orange maille...

A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Joe Loder




Location: Milwaukee, WI
Joined: 10 Mar 2006

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PostPosted: Thu 05 Apr, 2007 8:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

[quote]I then grilled them to a get the rest of the crap off the shirts.
Quote:


Hi James,

What exactly did you mean when you said 'grilling'? Start a grill burning and throw the maille on it? I just wanted to clarify because I have some maille to clean and I have everything else at home.


He who laughs last, thinks fastest.
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James Barker




Location: Ashburn VA
Joined: 20 Apr 2005

Posts: 365

PostPosted: Thu 05 Apr, 2007 10:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I use high heat on the propane grill Joe, not direct fire on the maille it leaves streaks.


Robin the key is to put the maille away dry; if it is wet when you put it in the wool sack it will stay wet. Wool does not let moister in but it also does not let it out Wink. While VA is not as bad as the bayou we are still a swamp with humid summers, I get minor rust when I sweat into my arming coat and it is moist for long periods of time but hardly turns orange. Movement while wearing the shirt knocks the rust off. I also find I never get rust with a wool layer between me and the shirt like my 15th century doublet or 11th century tunics, it only happens with my linen arming cote for 14th century armor. Wool keeps the sweat for reaching the maille.

James Barker
Historic Life http://www.historiclife.com/index.html
Archer in La Belle Compagnie http://www.labelle.org/
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Robin Smith




Location: Louisiana
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Apr, 2007 11:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Robin the key is to put the maille away dry; if it is wet when you put it in the wool sack it will stay wet. Wool does not let moister in but it also does not let it out . While VA is not as bad as the bayou we are still a swamp with humid summers, I get minor rust when I sweat into my arming coat and it is moist for long periods of time but hardly turns orange. Movement while wearing the shirt knocks the rust off. I also find I never get rust with a wool layer between me and the shirt like my 15th century doublet or 11th century tunics, it only happens with my linen arming cote for 14th century armor. Wool keeps the sweat for reaching the maille.

Yeah, I love my wool tunics. Kinda like a medieval airconditioner when you got a nice breeze. Laughing Out Loud I still think I am gonna seal the whole hauberk with future floor polish. Not for fear of sweat, but for fear of rain. I'm not one of these people who is able to endure a rusty hauberk. It grinds on my sense of beauty in the universe (I can be mildly OCD about my kit)...

A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Peter Fuller
Industry Professional



Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 13 Nov 2005

Posts: 49

PostPosted: Thu 05 Apr, 2007 5:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Guys, this is a no-brainer. Get a metal container large enough to hold your mail (i.e., bucket, steel mixing bowl, etc.), pour in enough Laquer Thinner to cover the mail. Let it sit for twenty minutes or so, until the laquer thinner has dossolved all of the grease from your mail. Pull the mail out and hold it over the container and let the excess laquer thinner drip off. Lay the mail on a towel or cloth until the laquer tinner has evaporated completely, and "voila!" you're done. I suggest you do this in a well ventalated space; the fumes can make you dizzy otherwise. Also, you'll have to pour the laquer thinner/dissolved grease back into it's original container and take it to whatever local authority you have for disposing of hazardous chemicals - usually the fire department will take it for you.

I've done this a dozen times, so I know it works.
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Joe Loder




Location: Milwaukee, WI
Joined: 10 Mar 2006

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PostPosted: Fri 06 Apr, 2007 10:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter,

Will this method work mulitple times with the same thinner? I am assuming that eventually the thinner would get saturated with dissolved gunk but I'm wondering if I could de gunk multiple items without having to purchase new thinner each time?

He who laughs last, thinks fastest.
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Peter Fuller
Industry Professional



Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 13 Nov 2005

Posts: 49

PostPosted: Fri 06 Apr, 2007 11:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joe;

Yes. You can actually run the laquer thinner through a paper filter (i.e., a something akin to a coffee filter) and remove some of the dissolved grease. Without filtering it though, you can use it four or five times before it loses its ability to remove the grease.
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Bruno Giordan





Joined: 28 Sep 2005

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PostPosted: Fri 06 Apr, 2007 2:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric Allen wrote:
Pine-Sol will take the oil off of mail as well.

About "Getting greasy from the oil being period," How do we know? I know of sources saying the sand-in-a-barrel method, but do we actually have any (primary) sources describing oil on mail? Inquiring minds want to know. Question


Chaucer's knight "bismothered gipon", that's one I know of.

teh verses:

"Of fustian he wered a gipoun/ Al bismothered with his habergeoun"

Clearly the haubergeon has had a dramatic effect on the fustian jupon.

Could be rust or oil but it gives us hints about the real look of a knight who had not had time to don his best clothes.
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Eric Allen




Location: Texas
Joined: 04 Feb 2006

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PostPosted: Fri 06 Apr, 2007 3:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bruno Giordan wrote:

Chaucer's knight "bismothered gipon", that's one I know of.

teh verses:

"Of fustian he wered a gipoun/ Al bismothered with his habergeoun"

Clearly the haubergeon has had a dramatic effect on the fustian jupon.

Could be rust or oil but it gives us hints about the real look of a knight who had not had time to don his best clothes.


I'm not a literary expert by any way, shape, or form, but I can see how that can be taken to mean that the haugergon has mussed up the jupon somehow, or that the haubergon is simply covering the jupon

"bismothered" looks to me to be related to the modern "smothered" which often means "to cover thickly" so it could just as easily mean that our knight friend is simply wearing his haubergon over his jupon. If the haubergon is getting his jupon dirty somehow, I'd expect a word more like "Besmirch" (maybe spelled "bismirched" in Middle English?) which means "to tarnish or dirty."

I'm not saying they didn't get all greasy and messy from their maille, I'm just wondering how we know considering it does not require drenching with oil to prevent rust now-a-days, and with just some routine maintnence (i.e. give it a tumble in the sand barrel every fortnight or after you've been sweating in it) and the oil might not even be that necessary.

Part of the reason I ask is I have a maille coif that I removed all the oil from when I first got it, and haven't reapplied any at all. After a few years of wearing and display in not-exactly-dry environments (admittatedly, I do not wear it very frequently), it has only in the past month and a half started to display a small ammount of rust on a handfull of links on the edge where it drapes onto my desk when on display--and I play with those rings constantly. So while my finger oils explain that rust, the rest of the coif is still essentially rust-free with no oil at all. Even my spangenhelm (mild steel as well) only shows a little rust (which I clean off) on those areas where its been excessively handled (like the nasal--I keep playing with the nasal) with no coat of oil protection either. So I wonder if getting greasy from our maille is [i]necessary[i] considering it does not seem to take excessive ammounts of oil to prevent rusting--something I wouldn't doubt if our ancestors who may have had to deal with maille on a near-daily basis would have figgured out.
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Pete Vanderzwet





Joined: 06 Apr 2007

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sat 07 Apr, 2007 6:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pig fat? Why didn't the Crusaders let the Muslems know about this. They wouldn't have come near them. Happy

I wonder what the Saracens used, certainly not pig fat.

I'm inexperienced with chainmail, but I figure oil is oil. What about dish soap?
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