| Author |
Message |
|
Joe Fults
|
 Posted: Mon 26 Mar, 2007 12:43 pm Post subject: Gen2 Practice Sword |
 |
|
Just got this:
http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~IP11...+Sword.htm
from KoA today.
Fittings are very tight and it is comfortable enough in hand. Finish is much better than it needs to be for a trainer (IMO) overall. Its also stiffer than some steel training tools I've held, which to me is a plus for solo drilling, but for partner drilling I don't know.
This thing might be decent right now as a cheap training tool, might. Gen2 says the trainer weighs 4lbs 3 oz but my fish scale says 4 lbs flat (feels heavier). Find a way to knock 5-7 more oz off of it without sacrificing durability, while moderately increasing cost, and I think Gen 2 might really be on to something.
The flare on the blade also needs a tweak, it has a sharp spot on each side that I'm going to have to file down if I keep it.
If I keep it I'll keep it for a beater, and might even get another at some point since they are so darn cheap (since I initially posted this I'm leaning towards not).
Probably not doing an official review. I figure it needs somebody with a bit more martial background than I have to do a martial training tool review justice (might change my mind on this to just not worth the effort).
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
Last edited by Joe Fults on Tue 27 Mar, 2007 9:01 pm; edited 2 times in total
|
|
  |
 |
Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
|
| Posted: Mon 26 Mar, 2007 1:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks, Joe! I've been wondering myself about these. The main thing that makes me cringe is the weight... though that might actually be good for certain groups. For standard western martial arts, though, I hope they can come up with something a little lighter.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
|
|
 |
|
|
Joe Fults
|
| Posted: Mon 26 Mar, 2007 1:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bill Grandy wrote: | | Thanks, Joe! I've been wondering myself about these. The main thing that makes me cringe is the weight... though that might actually be good for certain groups. For standard western martial arts, though, I hope they can come up with something a little lighter. |
Ditto..you might do worse for $179 shipped, but it does feel like it has a brick in the handle of it.
I think half a pound less would make a world of difference.
As is I just wonder how much the weight could compromise control when playing with a partner. In fairness it is marketed as a two handed training sword, but if I had the tools and was determined to use it, I'd try a bit of grinding myself.
Balance seems to be about 4 or 4 1/2 inches in front of the leading edge of the guard (which is a monster). I think Gen2 could probably de-beef the furniture and play with the tip some to bring the weigth down without mucking it up or driving the cost through the ceiling.
As it stands, I really want edto like this thing, but I'm very ambivalent about it at best.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
Last edited by Joe Fults on Tue 27 Mar, 2007 8:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joe Fults
|
| Posted: Mon 26 Mar, 2007 4:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
After some more poorly executed martial exercises in the backyard, I'm completely convinced that this thing needs to go on a diet. It seriously feels like there is a brick in the handle, which is a shame because I really want to like it since Gen2 has a reputation for toughness.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
Last edited by Joe Fults on Tue 27 Mar, 2007 9:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joe Fults
|
| Posted: Tue 27 Mar, 2007 8:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
In closing, it feels like it ate a brick, or maybe it ate Kristie Alley.
I'm not sure which.
Hopefully enough said.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clyde Hollis
Industry Professional
Location: Tennessee Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 72
|
| Posted: Wed 28 Mar, 2007 8:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Joe Fults wrote: | | After some more poorly executed martial exercises in the backyard, I'm completely convinced that this thing needs to go on a diet. It seriously feels like there is a brick in the handle, which is a shame because I really want to like it since Gen2 has a reputation for toughness. |
I don't know what happened on the earlier post. My computer went bonkers. Sorry:\
My only concern is if I loose some ounces in the handle that will shoot it being more blade heavy and that would not do.
Then to counter that I would have to shave some in the blade, not the ricasso but the main part of the practice blade.
Then we would run the chance if we made it narrower, under pressure it would snap and for safety reasons I just can not allow that. If we made it thinner, possible the same thing, and the blunt edge would be thinner.
We have done all we can to make near the right weight and balance and still keep it a safe sword to practice with.
I would not want to skimp on the safety aspect.
What are talking about, from what I read 4 to 6 ounces. That is not much. I can't it feeling like Christie Alley ate in just a few ounces.  
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joe Fults
|
| Posted: Wed 28 Mar, 2007 8:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
Clyde,
In fairness you market it as a two handed trainer, but I think the balance point could slide out on the blade a little without too much performance challenge. Regarding weight should it be 4 lbs flat or 4 lbs 3 oz as on your website?
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
|
|
|
|
|
Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
|
| Posted: Wed 28 Mar, 2007 10:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi Clyde,
It depends on who you're marketing the tool to. If we're talking about two guys in full armour who are making direct strikes against the armour, then it doesn't really matter. In fact, in that case, the heavier sword probably does make more sense, as it will be less likely to fail.
That said, if you're talking about people training in historical European swordsmanship, using period-correct techniques for unarmoured combat, then these swords are by far more dangerous than something lighter. The heavier the sword, the harder it is to control. When I'm training or bouting using the techniques laid down for unarmoured combat, I'm not wearing a huge amount of heavy protection. I'm wearing a fencing mask, a padded gambeson, and some additional bits here and there, such as lacrosse gloves or a gorget. I'm not wearing full armour, though, because that's not what I'm practicing. I would be very weary of an opponent using a sword that was so heavy, because if he loses control, I'm the one who's going to the hospital.
Again, though, it depends on who you're marketing the sword to. My thoughts would be that you could make two versions: A heavy duty one, and a lighter one. The heavy duty one is specifically geared towards those who do the types of combat that involve striking armour, or for the types of stage combat you see at the Renaissance Fairre. The lighter one could be marketed more towards those practicing unarmoured longsword in historical European swordsmanship.
A lighter one would need to be at least a full pound lighter for safety. So if you shaved six ounces off the blade, and six ounces off the hilt, that might work. If you're worried about the edge becoming too thin, maybe some of that weight needs to appear in the form of a fuller. Or maybe you should start with thicker stock at the base and have it taper more drastically. I realize both of those suggestions will increase the price. To be honest, though, if you make those kinds of changes and jack the price up another $50 or so, you'd still have a very inexpensive training tool that is going to be much more in demand to HES students, even those who are on a budget.
Just some considerations.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
|
|
|
|
|
Scott Hanson
|
| Posted: Wed 28 Mar, 2007 11:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
Have you also considered making it shorter? The specs say 49 inches long, and as a longsword trainer it could easily afford to lose 2 inches in length.
|
|
|
|
|
J F. McBrayer
|
| Posted: Thu 29 Mar, 2007 9:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Bill Grandy wrote: |
A lighter one would need to be at least a full pound lighter for safety. So if you shaved six ounces off the blade, and six ounces off the hilt, that might work. If you're worried about the edge becoming too thin, maybe some of that weight needs to appear in the form of a fuller. Or maybe you should start with thicker stock at the base and have it taper more drastically. I realize both of those suggestions will increase the price. To be honest, though, if you make those kinds of changes and jack the price up another $50 or so, you'd still have a very inexpensive training tool that is going to be much more in demand to HES students, even those who are on a budget. |
Quoted for truth. The fact is that as far as I can tell, functionally-correct longsword foils are only being made by the higher-end production companies right now (Albion & A&A). And while their practice swords are cheaper than their sharps, they're still all in the $400 and up range. I think that someone offering a longsword foil that was safe, properly balanced, and durable, in the $250 range could clean up in the HES market.
|
|
|
|
|
Brian Hook
|
| Posted: Thu 29 Mar, 2007 9:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| J F. McBrayer wrote: |
Quoted for truth. The fact is that as far as I can tell, functionally-correct longsword foils are only being made by the higher-end production companies right now (Albion & A&A). And while their practice swords are cheaper than their sharps, they're still all in the $400 and up range. I think that someone offering a longsword foil that was safe, properly balanced, and durable, in the $250 range could clean up in the HES market. |
*ahem* http://www.swordcrafts.com/ sorry bad cough, but seriously a member of my Liechtenauer has that clunky gen2 and shaved a good amount of weight off the blade and it still is unwieldy, to me the aluminium ones at least feel much more like a real sword and there are 100 bucks cheaper (That said I've haven't felt the Sword craft ones but only heard good things about them).
|
|
|
|
|
J F. McBrayer
|
| Posted: Thu 29 Mar, 2007 10:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Brian Hook wrote: |
*ahem* http://www.swordcrafts.com/ sorry bad cough, but seriously a member of my Liechtenauer has that clunky gen2 and shaved a good amount of weight off the blade and it still is unwieldy, to me the aluminium ones at least feel much more like a real sword and there are 100 bucks cheaper (That said I've haven't felt the Sword craft ones but only heard good things about them). |
I wasn't including aluminium wasters. I'm given to understand that they're a perfectly good training tool for those groups that use them, but they're not really the same thing as a steel practice sword. I've heard good things about Swordcrafts' aluminium wasters, too, for what it's worth.
|
|
|
|
|
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
|
| Posted: Thu 29 Mar, 2007 10:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| J F. McBrayer wrote: | | I think that someone offering a longsword foil that was safe, properly balanced, and durable, in the $250 range could clean up in the HES market. |
I'm not sure anybody could make such a sword for $250 and "clean up", as making such a sword that is made properly and with some degree of historical accuracy in that price range would not be leaving much, if any, profit. Sales are only good if they are profitable sales.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
|
|
 |
|
Brian Hook
|
| Posted: Thu 29 Mar, 2007 11:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
JF in my opinion the aluminium's feel more much like a real sword then that gen 2 does, There are crowbars made of steel as well doesn't mean putting a cross on one and calling it a sword, will make it better then an aluminium waster. I think the aluminium is the best your going to get at that price range (and it's a better price range at that) 250 will not get you a quality steel training weapon, If your not willing to go for a Albion Liechtenauer or A&A Fechterspiel or Fechtbuch sword I think the aluminium's are really the only other option.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joe Fults
|
| Posted: Thu 29 Mar, 2007 12:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | J F. McBrayer wrote: | | I think that someone offering a longsword foil that was safe, properly balanced, and durable, in the $250 range could clean up in the HES market. |
I'm not sure anybody could make such a sword for $250 and "clean up", as making such a sword that is made properly and with some degree of historical accuracy in that price range would not be leaving much, if any, profit. Sales are only good if they are profitable sales. |
I'm not sure historical accuracy is a huge requirement for this application. The people playing at WMA, at least those I've met around here, view their swords and wasters as little more than tools so their priorities differ a bit from collectors
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
|
|
|
|
|
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
|
| Posted: Thu 29 Mar, 2007 12:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Joe Fults wrote: | | I'm not sure historical accuracy is a huge requirement for this application. If it could be done they could certainly sell a few of the devices. As for how much profit could be made, I have no idea. The people playing at WMA, at least those I've met around here, view their swords and wasters as little more than tools so their priorities differ a bit from collectors |
I humbly disagree about historical accuracy. Let me first define my terminology. I'm using the term "historical accuracy" to include functionality not simply appearance.
For WMA practitioners to revive the methods of fighting and practice of the past, one is brought much closer to the goal of learning what was done, how it was done, and with what limits and benefits were imposed if one uses tools that are similar, if not identical, to the tools used in the past. The same criteria is true for the footwear used (rubber soles with a grip are going to produce a very different effect than leather soles, as an example) or protection equipment (one will fight much different with modern-day lightweight but durable protection than would be done with the same equipment worn by fighters of the past.)
To truly learn what was done, how it was done, and why it was done the way it was, one has to recreate the variables as closely as possible. Throwing a sword into the equation that is, as a random example, one and a half pounds heavier and handles completely differently than one history has left us will certainly allow us to train, but will not allow us train in a historically accurate manner.
Historically accurate tools allow for historically accurate methodology.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
|
|
|
|
|
Greg Coffman
|
| Posted: Thu 29 Mar, 2007 12:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | but they're not really the same thing as a steel practice sword |
What is the drawback of using aluminum practice swords? How do they differ from steel swords?
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joe Fults
|
| Posted: Thu 29 Mar, 2007 12:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | Joe Fults wrote: | | I'm not sure historical accuracy is a huge requirement for this application. If it could be done they could certainly sell a few of the devices. As for how much profit could be made, I have no idea. The people playing at WMA, at least those I've met around here, view their swords and wasters as little more than tools so their priorities differ a bit from collectors |
I humbly disagree about historical accuracy. Let me first define my terminology. I'm using the term "historical accuracy" to include functionality not simply appearance.
For WMA practitioners to revive the methods of fighting and practice of the past, one is brought much closer to the goal of learning what was done, how it was done, and with what limits and benefits were imposed if one uses tools that are similar, if not identical, to the tools used in the past. The same criteria is true for the footwear used (rubber soles with a grip are going to produce a very different effect than leather soles, as an example) or protection equipment (one will fight much different with modern-day lightweight but durable protection than would be done with the same equipment worn by fighters of the past.)
To truly learn what was done, how it was done, and why it was done the way it was, one has to recreate the variables as closely as possible. Throwing a sword into the equation that is, as a random example, one and a half pounds heavier and handles completely differently than one history has left us will certainly allow us to train, but will not allow us train in a historically accurate manner.
Historically accurate tools allow for historically accurate methodology. |
In concept I agree, but pragmatically many people participate in rubber soled shoes, with modern attire, using modern protective equipment. Guess it comes down to a question of where each group or individual decides to draw the line and what they are seeking to accomplish in their study. I'll leave it to others to judge the validity of the concessions people decide to make and the effect of those concessions on their study, but as with any discussion involving historical accuracy its a question of how accurate is accurate enough.
High historical accuracy can be highly exclusive, which can be problematic for membership driven organizations.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
Last edited by Joe Fults on Thu 29 Mar, 2007 1:16 pm; edited 2 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
|
|
|
|
|
J F. McBrayer
|
| Posted: Thu 29 Mar, 2007 1:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Greg Coffman wrote: | | Quote: | | but they're not really the same thing as a steel practice sword |
What is the drawback of using aluminum practice swords? How do they differ from steel swords? |
I'm not actually claiming that they have any drawbacks. I'm just saying that they're not the same thing, and so was excluding them from my comparison. The only limitation that I'm aware of is that in pair drills and freeplay, you can only pair aluminium with aluminium and steel with steel, so what you use depends on what your companions are using. There may be others, but I'm in no position to say.
I'm just saying that there probably (I could well be wrong) is a largely untapped market for a purpose-built steel training sword (not just a blunt) on the lower end. I was hoping that this sword would fit into that niche, and was sorry to see that it doesn't meet the requirements. Personally, I'm slowly saving up for an A&A Fechterspiel sword, but I am still very interested in seeing attempts to fit that market niche.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum
|
This is a standard topic