myArmoury.com - Examples from the Musée de l'Armée Paris

Manouchehr M.

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Posts: 601

Mon 12 Mar, 2007 10:52 am

Some more pictures

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Randall Moffett

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Posts: 2,121 Location: Northern Utah

Mon 12 Mar, 2007 1:38 pm

It might be a gross messer. It means big knife. They seem to have been similar to the falchion but two handed.

RPM

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Jean Thibodeau

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Posts: 8,310 Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada

Mon 12 Mar, 2007 1:49 pm

Thanks again for the great pics: I really like them all but the bronze age stuff is amazing

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Hisham Gaballa

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Posts: 508

Mon 12 Mar, 2007 2:39 pm

Manouchehr M. wrote:

Turban helmet of Sultan Bayazid II 1481-1512

Kind regards

Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani

Thanks for posting those pictures. I have always been fascinated by this helmet which seems to be a hybrid of two types, the 'chichak' and the 'turban helmet'. I have never seen a colour picture of this particular helm before.

Manouchehr, is it possible for you to post a link to a bigger picture of it please?

I'm afraid 'll have to wait a while longer before I get to see it in person. When I suggested a weekend city break to Mrs Gaballa, she vetoed Paris and opted to book a holiday in Amsterdam instead. :(

Any good Arms and Armour Museums in Amsterdam? :D

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Steve Grisetti

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Posts: 1,812 Location: Orlando metro area, Florida, USA

Mon 12 Mar, 2007 4:33 pm

Thank you, Manouchehr, for posting more wonderful pictures!
I especially noticed this bronze age sword with its beautiful scabbard:
[ Linked Image ]

And I also take note of the two-handed sword in this picture:
[ Linked Image ]
The relatively small size and the shape of the parrying hooks reminds me of a discussion thread, some months ago, about historic precedent for parrying hooks like these.

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Manouchehr M.

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Posts: 601

Mon 12 Mar, 2007 11:50 pm

Randall Moffett wrote:

It might be a gross messer. It means big knife. They seem to have been similar to the falchion but two handed.

RPM

Hi Randall,

Thank you very much for the information. Do you have more information on Grosses Messer or pictures of similar pieces? Thanks.

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Manouchehr

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Manouchehr M.

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Posts: 601

Mon 12 Mar, 2007 11:51 pm

Jean Thibodeau wrote:

Thanks again for the great pics: I really like them all but the bronze age stuff is amazing

You are welcome Jean. The museum has a wonderful collection of bronze arms and armor. Really nice.

Kind regards

Manouchehr

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Manouchehr M.

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Posts: 601

Mon 12 Mar, 2007 11:56 pm

Hisham Gaballa wrote:

Manouchehr M. wrote:

Turban helmet of Sultan Bayazid II 1481-1512

Kind regards

Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani

Thanks for posting those pictures. I have always been fascinated by this helmet which seems to be a hybrid of two types, the 'chichak' and the 'turban helmet'. I have never seen a colour picture of this particular helm before.

Manouchehr, is it possible for you to post a link to a bigger picture of it please?

I'm afraid 'll have to wait a while longer before I get to see it in person. When I suggested a weekend city break to Mrs Gaballa, she vetoed Paris and opted to book a holiday in Amsterdam instead. :(

Any good Arms and Armour Museums in Amsterdam? :D

You are welcome Hisham. I am posting a bigger picture. I hope that this works, Let me know please.

Paris is a wonderful city. I like Amsterdam as well. But I prefer Paris for sure. I have been to Amsterdam couple of times but I have not seen a museum with arms and armor. I am sure there should be one. I am sure a member here could help.

Kind regards

Manocuhehr

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Manouchehr M.

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Posts: 601

Mon 12 Mar, 2007 11:58 pm

Steve Grisetti wrote:

Thank you, Manouchehr, for posting more wonderful pictures!
I especially noticed this bronze age sword with its beautiful scabbard:
[ Linked Image ]

And I also take note of the two-handed sword in this picture:
[ Linked Image ]
The relatively small size and the shape of the parrying hooks reminds me of a discussion thread, some months ago, about historic precedent for parrying hooks like these.

Steve,

You are welcome. That bronze sword is truly amazing. Have you seen similar examples of it? Do you have the link to that thread on parrying hooks?

Wonderful input. Gentlemen, let us discuss these weapons more in detail. This way we can all learn a lot. I will post more pictures now.

Kind regards

Manouchehr

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Manouchehr M.

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Posts: 601

Tue 13 Mar, 2007 12:04 am

War axe and buckler from England 1540.

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Manouchehr

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Manouchehr M.

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Posts: 601

Tue 13 Mar, 2007 12:06 am

Maces and a warhammer from 1550.

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Manouchehr

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Sean Flynt

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Posts: 5,981 Location: Birmingham, Alabama

Tue 13 Mar, 2007 9:03 am

This one is of the same type as the Wallace Collection's A477, on which the Windlass Steelcrafts "German Bastard Sword" is modeled. Same distinctive dimensions, hilt details. Note the blued hilt, pear-shaped finials and ringed or spiral collars below finials. These all must have been from the same German workshop. It's great to finally see a full-length view. I'm happy to see the scabbard, but I sure would like to see the blade. I'm hoping to see the A477 in a few weeks....

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Manouchehr M.

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Posts: 601

Tue 13 Mar, 2007 10:43 am

Sean Flynt wrote:

This one is of the same type as the Wallace Collection's A477, on which the Windlass Steelcrafts "German Bastard Sword" is modeled. Same distinctive dimensions, hilt details. Note the blued hilt, pear-shaped finials and ringed or spiral collars below finials. These all must have been from the same German workshop. It's great to finally see a full-length view. I'm happy to see the scabbard, but I sure would like to see the blade. I'm hoping to see the A477 in a few weeks....

Thank you very much Sean for your input. I really appreciate it. Dear friends, please make more inputs about the pieces that have been posted posted so far. This way we can all learn a lot. Thanks again.

Kin dregards

Manouchehr

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Manouchehr M.

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Posts: 601

Tue 13 Mar, 2007 10:46 am

Archer's bringandine. Spanish work 1480. Could you explain more about this armor and similar pieces?

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Manouchehr

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Sean Flynt

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Posts: 5,981 Location: Birmingham, Alabama

Tue 13 Mar, 2007 12:24 pm

Manouchehr M. wrote:

Sean Flynt wrote:

This one is of the same type as the Wallace Collection's A477, on which the Windlass Steelcrafts "German Bastard Sword" is modeled. Same distinctive dimensions, hilt details. Note the blued hilt, pear-shaped finials and ringed or spiral collars below finials. These all must have been from the same German workshop. It's great to finally see a full-length view. I'm happy to see the scabbard, but I sure would like to see the blade. I'm hoping to see the A477 in a few weeks....

Thank you very much Sean for your input. I really appreciate it. Dear friends, please make more inputs about the pieces that have been posted posted so far. This way we can all learn a lot. Thanks again.

Kin dregards

Manouchehr

And thank you for the photos! By the way, a hilt of this type (drawing only) can be seen in Oakeshott's European Weapons and Armour. Here's what the Wallace Collection has to say about A477:

A477 SWORD (Bastard or Hand-and-Half)
The HILT of blued steel; pear shaped POMMEL, straight QUILLONS, round in section, ending in pear shaped knobs, with a spiral or roped collar: SIDE-RING on either side. The grip is shouldered, bound with cord and covered with leather. The broad, two-edged BLADE has a shallow hollow running three quarters of its length. The maker's mark is a bell within a shield, inlaid in copper on both faces 5.5" from hilt.
L. 37 5/8"; W. 2 1/8"; Wt. 4 lbs 8 oz.
German (about 1510)
De Beaumont Catalogue, No. 68.
Provenance: Comte de Niewerkerke
A sword with a like mark is in the Hermitage, Leningrad (Lenz, 1908, B 398)

As for the archer's brigandine, I can offer only basic info about western armour of this type. It consists of small iron plates riveted to cloth or leather facing material. Sometimes the plates are exposed on the inside of the garment, sometimes they are concealed by a lining. Because the plates can move independently and slide over each other to some degree, this type of armour offers more flexibility than solid plate armour. It is often said that this type of armour also is lighter weight than solid plate. I have no real reason to doubt this, but I'd like to hear a detailed explanation of that. It seems to me that, given the same amount of coverage and same plate thickness, solid plate would be lighter simply because it lacks the rivets required by the brigandine. In theory, this armour is easier (cheaper) to produce than solid plate, which must be formed and fitted. Thus its infantry use.

It is interesting to note that although this type of armour was largely considered obsolete in the west by the 17th century, there is some evidence that the earliest English colonists in Viginia Colony (first quarter of the 17th c.) cut up solid breastplates in order to produce brigandine armour. This is supposed to be an indication that the solid plate was too cumbersome or hot for that particular environment. According to this thinking, a "jack" or "jack of plate" as the English called this type of armour, would have provided ample protection from native arrows and spears while allowing the wearer a more comfortable garment (leather?linen?wool?) and relatively free range of motion.

Armour isn't my primary interest, but I'm sure some students of medieval armour will chime in here to tell us more about the brigandine shown.

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Manouchehr M.

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Posts: 601

Wed 14 Mar, 2007 12:56 am

Excellent information Sean. Thank you very much for sharing. I really appreciate it.

It is a pleasure for me to share my pictures with my friends here in this forum. I will post many other pictures of other museums as well, so that the members of myArmoury who are not able to travel to museums could benefit from these. In case the staff of myArmoury needs any of these pictures for an article let me know and I can send pictures via higher resolutions.

A white armor from Innsbruck (?) 1470-1480.

Kind regards
Manouchehr

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