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Justin Pasternak




Location: West Springfield, Massachusetts
Joined: 17 Sep 2006

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Feb, 2007 4:00 pm    Post subject: replica of swords that belonged to achilles and odysseus         Reply with quote

On the website that I found this image of replicated bronze swords said that the top sword is a copy of the sword that belonged to Odysseus and the bottom sword belonged to Achilles?

Is there any proof to back this up?
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Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
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PostPosted: Wed 28 Feb, 2007 4:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Those look like the Mycenaean swords that Albion used to sell. If I remember right, one was called the Odysseus cutter, and the other, the Achilles thruster. There was no claim that these were the actual swords of those guys - just a marketing device. Is this other website you refer to making that claim?
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Justin Pasternak




Location: West Springfield, Massachusetts
Joined: 17 Sep 2006

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Feb, 2007 4:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, Roger the other website is making that claim. I'm currently trying to find the "URL" to that website that I found the image from.
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Steve Grisetti




Location: Orlando metro area, Florida, USA
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PostPosted: Thu 01 Mar, 2007 3:42 pm    Post subject: Re: replica of swords that belonged to achilles and odysseus         Reply with quote

Justin Pasternak wrote:
On the website that I found this image of replicated bronze swords said that the top sword is a copy of the sword that belonged to Odysseus and the bottom sword belonged to Achilles?

Is there any proof to back this up?

I don't think there is even "hard proof" to document that the legendary personages of either Odysseus or Achilles even existed! However, I believe that these replicas are based on actual Bronze Age archeological finds.

"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Michael Eging




Location: Ashburn, VA
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: Thu 01 Mar, 2007 6:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Great Steve. First no Tooth Fairy and now this.... Cool

What's next?

M. Eging
Hamilton, VA
www.silverhornechoes.com
Member of the HEMA Alliance
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Sam Barris




Location: San Diego, California
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PostPosted: Thu 01 Mar, 2007 8:40 pm    Post subject: Re: replica of swords that belonged to achilles and odysseus         Reply with quote

Steve Grisetti wrote:
I don't think there is even "hard proof" to document that the legendary personages of either Odysseus or Achilles even existed!

Well, there goes my inner child. Thanks, dude. Wink

But seriously, those were just the names that Albion gave those pieces. I'm not sure if they were based on specific originals or composites based on several examples of those types, but if they're saying that they're based on the actual swords carried by those two guys, then they're either lying to you or they're just sloppy with the grammar.

I'd be curious to see that URL though. I missed out on those the first time around. Happy

Pax,
Sam Barris

"Any nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." —Thucydides
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Matt G




Location: Bay Area, California
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PostPosted: Thu 01 Mar, 2007 11:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ok, this is going by memory (so don't bet the rent money on it) but I believe the names used by Albion were taken from the book by the author Peter Connolly titled, "The Ancient Greece of Odysseus".

In the book, illustrations show Odysseus carrying the sword that is attributed to his namesake, although Connolly makes no claim whatsoever that this sword type has any link to the hero Odysseus. The sword called the "Achilles Mycenaen Thrusting Sword" by Albion was illustrated in the book, but again, not linked by Connolly to the character Achilles.

I think Albion's intention was to provide memorable names for the swords, not to mislead. They did make reference to the book on the website at the time these swords were offered. Hope that helps.

"Speak what you think today in words as hard as cannon-balls and tomorrow speak what tomorrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said today."

Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803 - 1882)
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Fri 02 Mar, 2007 12:06 am    Post subject: Re: replica of swords that belonged to achilles and odysseus         Reply with quote

Sorry to give the last blow but every european gymnasium student knows hat homer itself is not a verified historical figure: scholars are debating still today on wether he was a single person or just a name for a collective work of many poems carryng on a popular epic through soem centuries of stratification.

Achilles and Odusseus as well as all the Troy\'s epic characters are likely based on historical figures, however it is all shrouded into myth, just in the way your King Arthur is.


The only certainity from archeological finds is the existence of a Troy town, but that\\\\\\\'s where we stop.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy

Many peoples tried to link their heritage to Troy, starting from the Romans (who needed a legend to justify to their invasion of Greece as well as a noble origin), going back to the current legend linking Venetians to the paleo-greek Eneti.

In short, Achilleus\' sword is as true as a King Arthur\\\\\\\'s one.
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Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
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PostPosted: Fri 02 Mar, 2007 7:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The best you can say is that the shadowy men that Achilles and Odysseus are based on could have carried swords that were sort of like the ones pictured in the first post of this thread..

I don't believe Albion made these bronze swords themselves, but imported them from the land of Elsewhere. I never held one myself, but the consensus was that they were overweight clunkers, and Albion stopped selling them.

If you want a good Bronze Age replica sword, you should contact Neil Burridge in the UK http://www.templeresearch.eclipse.co.uk/bronz...r_sale.htm
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

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PostPosted: Fri 02 Mar, 2007 9:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yup, pretty much what everyone else said! Those are my swords, by the way, though they look much better now:

http://www.larp.com/hoplite/moatGs6.jpg

http://www.larp.com/hoplite/moatGs7.jpg

As they come from Albion, they don't look too bad, but they're way too heavy. The Indians who cast them screwed up! I ground these both down to about half their original weight to get them to a more realistic heft, then put the hilts on.

http://www.larp.com/hoplite/BAweapons.html

For what it's worth, Homer is probably a much better source than most people give him credit for. Once the horribly messed-up chronology for that era is fixed, it will be seen that he lived much closer in time to the events he describes. He talks about real places, his ship list is practically straight out of Mycenaean records, and the names of several of his characters are apparently mentioned in Hittite accounts. A lot of other "legends" and historical accounts tie in to the Trojan War stories. You don't know how hard it is to research an era when the primary literary sources are callously dismissed as myths! The comparison to King Arthur is very apt.

Khairete!

Matthew
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Neil Langley




Location: Stockport, UK
Joined: 23 Jan 2006

Posts: 112

PostPosted: Fri 02 Mar, 2007 10:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger Hooper wrote:
If you want a good Bronze Age replica sword, you should contact Neil Burridge in the UK http://www.templeresearch.eclipse.co.uk/bronz...r_sale.htm

This page (and the site itself) seems to have moved to: http://www.bronze-age-craft.com/swords_for_sale.htm

I remember seeing one of Neil’s swords on the BBC documentary he referrers to on this page – the fact it took 'chunks' out of an iron blade stunned me at the time!

Neil.
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Kirk Lee Spencer




Location: Texas
Joined: 24 Oct 2003

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PostPosted: Fri 02 Mar, 2007 6:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi all...

Albion's Odysseus sword is based on the Woodhouse "sword" in the British Museum. I think it got its name from the Woodhouse family that donated it. It is supposed to have been found in Ithaka Greece. That is probably where the connection with the legendary Odysseus... for in Homer's Odyssey, Odysseus is the king of Ithaka.

I hilted one of these Albion swords some time ago... if anyone is interested here is the link:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=1547&start=0

The thread shows archeological drawings and color photos of the Woodhouse find. The main difference is that Albion's version has been lengthened by a few inches and is much heavier.

ks

Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Douglas G.





Joined: 30 Mar 2004

Posts: 156

PostPosted: Sat 03 Mar, 2007 6:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear Kirk,
I was wondering if you were going to share your sword with us again for this thread. Whenever I see bronzes
I always compare them mentally with your sword which leaves many wanting. This is still one of the coolest
swords I've seen. Have you done any other bronze weapons since? I haven't had a good envy for a while!

Best,
Doug G.
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Kirk Lee Spencer




Location: Texas
Joined: 24 Oct 2003

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Posts: 820

PostPosted: Sun 04 Mar, 2007 8:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Douglas G. wrote:
...Have you done any other bronze weapons since?

Best,
Doug G.



Hey Doug...

Thanks! Big Grin

I have a Mindelheim Sword on order from Neil Burridge

http://www.templeresearch.eclipse.co.uk/bronz..._large.htm

That will probably be the next bronze.... maybe with some amber inlay.

ks

Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Douglas G.





Joined: 30 Mar 2004

Posts: 156

PostPosted: Sun 04 Mar, 2007 3:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kirk,
I really like both Burridge's Antennae and Urnfield swords. The trouble is, sword money being on the tight side
for me for a while, if I bought, how to pick one and not agonize over not choosing the other. So for now I just look
at both and sigh.
The amber trim is intriguing, is there an historic precedent? It would be cool to have a piece set in the pommel
with some fierce bug like a scorpion transfixed in it. I look forward to seeing the finished sword!

Cheers!
Doug Gentner
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