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Todd Salazar
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 Posted: Sun 04 Feb, 2007 10:25 am Post subject: Historical use of damaged or broken weapons... |
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I currently own two Jacobite Scottish dirks in my collection and I wanted everyones thoughts on what they believe weapon owners in the days long ago would do with a weapon that was damaged or broken. In other words, would most individuals just hang a damaged or broken weapon on the wall and then purchase a newer weapon or would they invest some money and time to repair the older weapon. I guess it would also depend on the economic situation of the individual and the cost to reapir the damaged or broken weapon at the time. Perhaps, some weapons were just thrown away. From my experience with some 17th and 18th century weapons it seems to me that some individuals would just put an older broken weapon away and then go and purchase a new weapon. However, I know that in 18th century Scotland a lot of dirks were made from broken sword blades. Anyway, thanks for any comments and thoughts on this subject. 
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M. Eversberg II
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| Posted: Sun 04 Feb, 2007 11:14 am Post subject: |
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If I broke my weapon in battle, I'm sure it could be easily replaced by looking down.
M.
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Justin King
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sun 04 Feb, 2007 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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Good quality steel was a prime commodity throughout most of history until fairly modern times, so I am inclined to think that most blades would have been recycled into something when they had outlived their original usefulness. A piece of good quality steel might likely have some value in trade to a smith. Then again, a broken blade might not speak well for the quality of the steel...
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Steven H
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| Posted: Sun 04 Feb, 2007 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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I know that a few swords show signs of having broken and then being welded back together again, but I think these were from the Migration era.
A sword that was broken could be remade as a shorter bladed weapon, such as a dagger. Certainly daggers show signs of having been sharpened to almost nothing :-D
Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 04 Feb, 2007 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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I've seen quite a few antique swords that seem to have had the first few inches of the blade broken off, then were recycled into shorter weapons. They didn't throw anything away and recycled nearly everything for later use. This is one of the reasons why it's so difficult to find items from earlier periods that are in the kind of condition that would accurately represent that period.
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John Cooksey
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| Posted: Sun 04 Feb, 2007 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | I've seen quite a few antique swords that seem to have had the first few inches of the blade broken off, then were recycled into shorter weapons. They didn't throw anything away and recycled nearly everything for later use. This is one of the reasons why it's so difficult to find items from earlier periods that are in the kind of condition that would accurately represent that period. |
Very good point. The point might even be more valid the further you go back in time. I know that in Bronze Age Mesopotamia, a careful log was kept of the size and weight of all bronze tools in temple inventories, so that every fragment from ruined tools was brought back to the temple (oikos) for recycling.
I didn't surrender, but they took my horse and made him surrender.
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Chris M.
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| Posted: Tue 06 Feb, 2007 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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i know alot of "confederate bowies" were just broken calvary/officers swords.
i couldnt imagine throwing away a good blade that any local smith could regrind and slap a handle onto.
anybody know if this is where the sword hilted dagger came from?
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Tue 06 Feb, 2007 8:03 pm Post subject: repaired medieval swords... |
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Hello all!
There is at least one example of a medieval sword in Records of the Medieval Sword that Ewart Oakeshott claimed appears as if it was once broken but was subsequently welded or otherwise repaired. He based this assumption on certain aspects of the appearance of the blade.
One of the swords from the river Dordogne near Castilion, Type XV. 11 in Records, has a light band across the blade just about half-way down. Oakeshott stated that this was due to the blade being broken and welded back together, probably some time in the sword's working life.
There is a shortened Viking sword in Swords of the Viking Age by Ian Peirce that appears to have been made from a full-sized sword. The present blade represents the forte section of the original blade. It was reportedly from a boy's grave. It could represent a broken sword recycled into a boy's weapon.
Weapons like swords are, by their very nature, liable to suffer possible damage during their use. I'm not saying swords were frequently broken, but I am saying that a warrior always ran that risk, regardless of how careful he was. Accidents happen, and many period images of medieval battle scenes show broken weapons littering the battlefield. It seems that broken weapons would occasionally be recycled or repaired.
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
Last edited by Richard Fay on Wed 07 Feb, 2007 2:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 06 Feb, 2007 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| John Cooksey wrote: | | Patrick Kelly wrote: | | I've seen quite a few antique swords that seem to have had the first few inches of the blade broken off, then were recycled into shorter weapons. They didn't throw anything away and recycled nearly everything for later use. This is one of the reasons why it's so difficult to find items from earlier periods that are in the kind of condition that would accurately represent that period. |
Very good point. The point might even be more valid the further you go back in time. I know that in Bronze Age Mesopotamia, a careful log was kept of the size and weight of all bronze tools in temple inventories, so that every fragment from ruined tools was brought back to the temple (oikos) for recycling. |
With bronze age weapons if your favourite sword broke in half or got a really bad notch you could go to a sword maker and save on the price of the bronze by bringing him the pieces of the sword and have it melted down and recast or maybe just like a beer bottle deposit for a new sword maybe using the swordmaker's bronze ? Just speculation but it would make better sense than throwing away the bronze and paying full price for a new sword.
Again just speculation but lets suppose that a warrior had a favourite pattern for a sword and bought a sword and a wooden model of it used for make casting mold: When the sword took to much damage one could just recycle the bronze to get the same sword back ! Better than any repair for minor damage i.e. Just recast !
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Sam Barris
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| Posted: Tue 06 Feb, 2007 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| M. Eversberg II wrote: | | If I broke my weapon in battle, I'm sure it could be easily replaced by looking down. |
Pax,
Sam Barris
"Any nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." —Thucydides
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Wed 07 Feb, 2007 8:55 am Post subject: A repaired Viking sword... |
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Hello all!
Not only is there a boy's sword made from a cut-down full-sized sword in Ian Peirce's Swords of the Viking Age, but there is also a Viking sword that shows signs of possibly being repaired by a weld during its working life. This again can indicate that broken swords might be salvaged and repaired.
This particular Viking sword is from the Musee de l'Armee in Paris. It's number JPO 2249, a Petersen Type H, Wheeler Type H. Peirce states that the blade had been broken and welded, probably in "antiquity", about 27.5 cm from the cross. He further states that the weld was accomplished with great skill to keep the "imposing" lines of the blade intact.
This sword seems to have impressed Ian Peirce; he used terms like "alluring" to descibe it's proportions. Perhaps, even though it was a rather plain sword, the original owner felt the same as Peirce, and felt that the sword was worth repairing after it suffered a break.
This all reminds me of Narsil and Anduril from The Lord of the Rings (the books, not the movies). I wonder if Tolkien was inspired by stories of broken heriloom swords being repaired and reused. I believe that Narsil was only broken in two in the book, just like these medieval swords that suffered damage and were subsequently welded.
Yes, I just found the passage in The Fellowship of the Ring describing the "Sword that was Broken":
| J. R. R. Tolkien wrote: |
"And here in the House of Elrond more shall be made clear to you," said Aragorn, standing up. He cast his sword upon the table that stood before Elrond, and the blade was in two pieces. "Here is the Sword that was Broken!" he said. |
I know this is literature and not history, but I find it an interesting link between history and literature. Being something of a writer myself, I'm always fascinated when the two intermingle. After all, Tolkien was a student of history.
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
Last edited by Richard Fay on Wed 07 Feb, 2007 2:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Wed 07 Feb, 2007 12:05 pm Post subject: Possible repaired sword from Records of the Medieval Sword |
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Hello again!
I thought I would post the photo of the sword from Ewart Oakeshott's Records of the Medieval Sword that Oakeshott stated appeared as if it had been broken and welded back together. Oakeshott stated that the light band about half-way down the blade (where I placed the arrow in the image) suggests that the blade had been broken and re-welded. He felt that this was possibly done in the sword's working life. It could be evidence for the reccycling and reusing of medieval sword blades.
Stay safe!
 Attachment: 24.22 KB
Sword from the Dordogne River, Type XV. 11 from Records of the Medieval Sword.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Thomas Watt
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| Posted: Wed 07 Feb, 2007 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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The sword of William Wallace on display at the Wallace Monument is described as showing signs of being repaired... I failed to take close notes at the time, but I seem to recall that the writeup said the blade showed significant damage and repair.
Have 11 swords, 2 dirks, half a dozen tomahawks and 2 Jeeps - seem to be a magnet for more of all.
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Thomas Watt
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| Posted: Sat 10 Feb, 2007 4:56 am Post subject: |
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I wanted to follow up...
I ran across a clear statement of recycling a broken sword into a dirk at this Scottish museum's website:
http://www.futuremuseum.co.uk/Default.aspx?Id...;item=3158
 [url]
| Quote: | | Sometimes even broken swords had a use. This broken broadsword blade has been recycled with the addition of a wood and brass grip and turned into a dirk. |
[/url]
Have 11 swords, 2 dirks, half a dozen tomahawks and 2 Jeeps - seem to be a magnet for more of all.
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This is a standard topic