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Justin Pasternak
Location: West Springfield, Massachusetts Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 174
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 Posted: Tue 16 Jan, 2007 10:50 am Post subject: Creating a sword out of modern metals? |
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I have a question I've been wanting to ask for sometime now. I know that throughout the classical and medieval ages swords were made from copper, bronze, iron and steel. But, this might be a strange question, could you create an effective (usable) sword out a modern metal such as titanium for example. I believe that titanium (one of the types/grades) is ten times stronger and ten times lighter than steel (If I remember correctly) and could such a metal such as this hold a sharp edge and sharp point to have the characteristics/effectiveness of a sword?
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Trent Stevens
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| Posted: Tue 16 Jan, 2007 11:42 am Post subject: sword metals!! |
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yes you can....the swords i use at work are a titanium and aluminium alloy! there pretty light and strong and creat to bang together......but they dont hold a edge worth Sh#T. not a big problem, we dont want an sharp edge on them anyhow.
i still think even with these new alloys that Carbon "spring" steel (heat treated) is still much better for swords.
Trenty!
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Michal Plezia
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 16 Jan, 2007 11:47 am Post subject: |
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Why titanium doesn't hold a sharp edge? Maybe we think that titanium is some kind of hollywoodium,mithrill,katanium or other mythological undestrictable steels...and the truth is that it may be good for airplanes and armour in bulletproof vests and helmets and completely useless for sharp swords..Maybe one of the material specialists would explain 
www.elchon.com
Polish Guild of Knifemakers
The sword is a weapon for killing, the art of the sword is the art of killing. No matter what fancy words you use or what titles you put to
it that is the only truth.
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Florian H.
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| Posted: Tue 16 Jan, 2007 2:37 pm Post subject: Creating a sword out of modern metals? |
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Good evening.
Well, titanium is as a matter of fact not stronger than steel. While steel has a tensile strengh from arround 360 N/mm² to, in highly alloyed steel, 1000 N/mm² they all share the same density, 7.85 kg/dm³ and the same e- modulus, 210 kN/mm².
Pure titanium has a tensile strengh of ~350 N/mm² but in alloys a maximum of ~ 1000 N/mm², a density of 4.507 kg/dm³ and an e- modulus of 105 kN/mm².
Unfortunately I can't state anything about the hardness of titanium but I guess it ranges somewhere in the area of aluminum and so it is much softer than even the most basic steel alloy. Steele, enough carbon for perlitic structure implied, can be hardened up to ~60 HRC, which is more than most glasses are able to obtain and very brittle.
The e- modulus states how much the material deforms under a certain load. The tensile strengh states at which load a rod of this material and of defined cross sectional area fails. As you can see, in modern alloys both materials are approximately equally strong. But steel is the stiffer material. So titanium is not at all tougher or stronger than steel is. One of its advantages over steel is, besides its chemical properties, its lower density, and thereby the components weight.
It is an illusion that titanium is superior to any other material. It has its certain areas of application, as any other material, but I don't think that it is very suitable for swordblades.
I hope this helps. Good evening.
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Hugh Fuller
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| Posted: Tue 16 Jan, 2007 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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About the only area in which I can recall titanium being used in knives was the specialist tools made by such as Mission Knives out in California for the explosive ordinance people, those very brave guys who locate and disarm mines. THe advantage that titanium had was its lack of a magnetic signature, as I understood it. And that is why you will find it VERY difficult to find them on the general market today, for obvious reasons.
Hugh
Still trying to walk in the Light
Please see 1 John 1:5
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Jared Smith
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| Posted: Tue 16 Jan, 2007 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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Titanium alloys have uses as surgical knifes. They can be treated cryogenically, and heated to high temperatures with "self annealing" or rather consistently mediocre heat treat that makes them useful as things that can be sterilized or used in conjunction with liquid nitrogen.
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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M. Eversberg II
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| Posted: Tue 16 Jan, 2007 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: Creating a sword out of modern metals? |
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| Florian H. wrote: | Good evening.
Well, titanium is as a matter of fact not stronger than steel. While steel has a tensile strengh from arround 360 N/mm² to, in highly alloyed steel, 1000 N/mm² they all share the same density, 7.85 kg/dm³ and the same e- modulus, 210 kN/mm².
Pure titanium has a tensile strengh of ~350 N/mm² but in alloys a maximum of ~ 1000 N/mm², a density of 4.507 kg/dm³ and an e- modulus of 105 kN/mm².
Unfortunately I can't state anything about the hardness of titanium but I guess it ranges somewhere in the area of aluminum and so it is much softer than even the most basic steel alloy. Steele, enough carbon for perlitic structure implied, can be hardened up to ~60 HRC, which is more than most glasses are able to obtain and very brittle.
The e- modulus states how much the material deforms under a certain load. The tensile strengh states at which load a rod of this material and of defined cross sectional area fails. As you can see, in modern alloys both materials are approximately equally strong. But steel is the stiffer material. So titanium is not at all tougher or stronger than steel is. One of its advantages over steel is, besides its chemical properties, its lower density, and thereby the components weight.
It is an illusion that titanium is superior to any other material. It has its certain areas of application, as any other material, but I don't think that it is very suitable for swordblades.
I hope this helps. Good evening. |
Titanium is quite hard. It's quite light, too.
This is why it's not good for swords.
Light weight items don't give you enough built up energy in the blade to damage the target, and because titanium is hard, it's also brittle.
Additionally, swords where heat treated in history, so that's out as a "new" way.
In all truth there isn't much more we can improve on when it comes to sword materials, unless we manage to create some amazingly awesome alloy that's better than steel is.
M.
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Justin Pasternak
Location: West Springfield, Massachusetts Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Wed 17 Jan, 2007 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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What would be the best type of steel to use in making a sword?
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Michal Plezia
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 18 Jan, 2007 2:17 am Post subject: Re: Creating a sword out of modern metals? |
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| Florian H. wrote: | Good evening.
It is an illusion that titanium is superior to any other material. It has its certain areas of application, as any other material, but I don't think that it is very suitable for swordblades.
I hope this helps. Good evening. |
I think we should make a difference between pure titanium and titanium steel where titanium is only one of many components.I know that titanium steel is used in bulletproof helmets and vests.It has advantage over all aramide protections such as kevlar because it is not weakened near the area of hit.(Aramide helmets would loose their 'proofness' after just one hit because of the damage of the structure).It is also stronger and lighter than panzer steel.At least is what they say in military technology magazines
www.elchon.com
Polish Guild of Knifemakers
The sword is a weapon for killing, the art of the sword is the art of killing. No matter what fancy words you use or what titles you put to
it that is the only truth.
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George Hill
Location: Atlanta Ga Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Thu 18 Jan, 2007 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: Creating a sword out of modern metals? |
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| M. Eversberg II wrote: | [
Light weight items don't give you enough built up energy in the blade to damage the target, . |
That the last blade show, I saw a carbon fiber wakizishi. The thing was ultra light. The guy who made it said it would cut like mad, though I didn't see anyone cut with it.
As such, if he was telling the truth, it would seem that blade mass isn't vital to strong cutting.
Yeah, that seems weird to me too.
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 18 Jan, 2007 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: Creating a sword out of modern metals? |
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| George Hill wrote: | | M. Eversberg II wrote: | [
Light weight items don't give you enough built up energy in the blade to damage the target, . |
That the last blade show, I saw a carbon fibre wakizishi. The thing was ultra light. The guy who made it said it would cut like mad, though I didn't see anyone cut with it.
As such, if he was telling the truth, it would seem that blade mass isn't vital to strong cutting.
Yeah, that seems weird to me too. |
I have a carbon fibre folding knife made / marketed by Beretta knives a few year back: The actual edge is steel but the very thin steel has been bonded to a thicker backing of carbon fibre giving a light but strong blade but the cutting edge is still steel.
It's possible the wakizashi you saw had a carbon fibre body with a thin steel insert for the cutting edge.
Some form of composite ceramic / carbon fibre / steel or some superhard carbide could be produced in some sort of matrix giving maximum strength and edge holding at the same time ? Well your basic " unobtaneum ".
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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George Hill
Location: Atlanta Ga Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Fri 19 Jan, 2007 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: Creating a sword out of modern metals? |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
It's possible the wakizashi you saw had a carbon fibre body with a thin steel insert for the cutting edge.
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Yes, I'm sure it did. The point I was making wasn't one of materials science, but rather the need of weight (or the lack of the need for it) in a cutting sword.
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sat 20 Jan, 2007 12:35 am Post subject: Re: Creating a sword out of modern metals? |
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| George Hill wrote: | | Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
It's possible the wakizashi you saw had a carbon fibre body with a thin steel insert for the cutting edge.
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Yes, I'm sure it did. The point I was making wasn't one of materials science, but rather the need of weight (or the lack of the need for it) in a cutting sword. |
With a draw cut and a razor sharp blade ( literally razor sharp ) weight wouldn't be an important factor, even more so if armour wasn't involved.
With a more cleaving / chopping cut, weight I agree: A certain minimal amount of weight is desirable.
Since the original Topic is about the materials used in a futuristic blade I didn't focus on your point about blade weight and was answering in a more general way.  As well I was giving some general information about blades currently using carbon fibre that might not be known to all.
So in this post I am addressing your point and agree with the added mention of draw cuts. 
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Chris M.
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| Posted: Sat 20 Jan, 2007 1:24 am Post subject: |
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hey justin,
all current tool steels are good and will perform pretty close as long as you can get the temper right.
as long as you have a steel with at least 1% carbon or a complex steel in which some of the carbon is replaced with cromium or something else your ok. i like making blades with 1095 just because its inexpensive and easy to temper and work. i dont worry about burnoff in the forge as much with simple steel.
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Marcos Cantu
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| Posted: Sat 20 Jan, 2007 5:50 am Post subject: Re: Creating a sword out of modern metals? |
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| Michal Plezia wrote: | | Florian H. wrote: | Good evening.
It is an illusion that titanium is superior to any other material. It has its certain areas of application, as any other material, but I don't think that it is very suitable for swordblades.
I hope this helps. Good evening. |
I think we should make a difference between pure titanium and titanium steel where titanium is only one of many components.I know that titanium steel is used in bulletproof helmets and vests.It has advantage over all aramide protections such as kevlar because it is not weakened near the area of hit.(Aramide helmets would loose their 'proofness' after just one hit because of the damage of the structure).It is also stronger and lighter than panzer steel.At least is what they say in military technology magazines |
Titanium on body armor and helmets is always used in front of a soft armor material. The thin layer of Ti slows down and deforms a projectile making it easier for the soft armor to 'catch' and distribute its energy along the fibers.
Aramid (Kevlar, etc) helmets can take multiple hits without being compromised.
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Shawn Shaw
Location: Boston, MA USA Joined: 07 Jan 2006
Posts: 115
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| Posted: Sat 20 Jan, 2007 5:52 am Post subject: |
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Leaf springs from cars can make good sword fodder. I don't know what alloy they are (anyone else?).
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Addison C. de Lisle
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Michal Plezia
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 20 Jan, 2007 6:05 am Post subject: Re: Creating a sword out of modern metals? |
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| Marcos Cantu wrote: | | Michal Plezia wrote: | | Florian H. wrote: | Good evening.
It is an illusion that titanium is superior to any other material. It has its certain areas of application, as any other material, but I don't think that it is very suitable for swordblades.
I hope this helps. Good evening. |
I think we should make a difference between pure titanium and titanium steel where titanium is only one of many components.I know that titanium steel is used in bulletproof helmets and vests.It has advantage over all aramide protections such as kevlar because it is not weakened near the area of hit.(Aramide helmets would loose their 'proofness' after just one hit because of the damage of the structure).It is also stronger and lighter than panzer steel.At least is what they say in military technology magazines |
Titanium on body armor and helmets is always used in front of a soft armor material. The thin layer of Ti slows down and deforms a projectile making it easier for the soft armor to 'catch' and distribute its energy along the fibers.
Aramid (Kevlar, etc) helmets can take multiple hits without being compromised. |
http://www.armedforces-int.com/categories/pro...rio-05.asp
here is titanium helmet..3mm is not so thin...well the author of the article in specialized magazin would probably disagree with you in the matter of how many hits aramid armour can resist...But I am no speecialist.Maybe you are right.
www.elchon.com
Polish Guild of Knifemakers
The sword is a weapon for killing, the art of the sword is the art of killing. No matter what fancy words you use or what titles you put to
it that is the only truth.
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Marcos Cantu
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| Posted: Sat 20 Jan, 2007 6:28 am Post subject: |
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Well in the US armor has to take 6 hits with no penetrations and no backface deformation over 44mm in order to be NIJ rated. I know the UK and Germany have similar requirements. Sorry for going off topic...
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George Hill
Location: Atlanta Ga Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Sat 20 Jan, 2007 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: Creating a sword out of modern metals? |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
With a more cleaving / chopping cut, weight I agree: A certain minimal amount of weight is desirable.
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I would think so too, the smith who made it didn't. Personally I have nothing invested in it either way, and haven't seen a demo, so I'll just leave the idea there until more study is done.
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
Last edited by George Hill on Sat 20 Jan, 2007 10:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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This is a standard topic