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Andrew Koo
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 Posted: Fri 12 Jan, 2007 8:56 am Post subject: Did A&A change the design of the #069 Smallsword? |
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Hi all,
I'm new here and have been interested in blade weapons for a long time. I have to say I really enjoy this wonderful website. Thanks for sharing it with us.
Now, after reading Stephen Fisher's review of A&A's smallsword, I'm inspired to purchase one. However, I hope someone can help me with some questions.
Comparing the pixs on A&A's website, I notice the handle on Stephen's review piece has a more tapered profile, while the A&A example has an ovoid shaped handle. Is there a reason for the change?
Also, it seems that the pommel is not peened to the tang like Stephen's example, there is no peened block at the end (or whatever you call that?).
Is the prommel screwed into the tang? If so, are we able to unscrew the prommel and remove the handle and hilt?
Photo on www.arms-n-armor.com
http://www.arms-n-armor.com/view.html?rapier069c.jpg
Stephen's review piece
http://www.myArmoury.com/view.html?reviews/aa_ss_e.jpg
Thanks for any reply.
cheers
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Edward Hitchens
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| Posted: Fri 12 Jan, 2007 9:57 am Post subject: |
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Aside from the pommel nut, I don't see a huge difference. I don't know exactly how the pommel on that particular sword is mounted; I bet Craig could tell you. I have an A&A Tudor dagger that can be field-stripped by unscrewing the pommel.
Arms&Armor does change the design on some of their pieces from time to time to make them look (and handle) even more like the centuies-old originals. For instance, I learned that their Henry V sword will now be made with a hollow-ground blade just like the original in Westminster Abbey. It's also important to realize that no handmade item will be machine perfect; a feature that (in my opinion) adds to the sword's significance as an artistic as well as a historic item. 
"The whole art of government consists in the art of being honest." Thomas Jefferson
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Fri 12 Jan, 2007 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: Did A&A change the design of the #069 Smallsword? |
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| Andrew Koo wrote: | | ... Comparing the pixs on A&A's website, I notice the handle on Stephen's review piece has a more tapered profile, while the A&A example has an ovoid shaped handle. Is there a reason for the change? .... |
Consider that the the cross-section of the grip changes from an ovoid shape at the cross to a more circular shape at the pommel. The width might also swell near the center. Note also that the perspective of the two photos is different. Perhaps the different views of the grip accounts for what we are seeing, rather than a design change to the grip profile?
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Andrew Koo
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| Posted: Sat 13 Jan, 2007 12:02 am Post subject: |
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Hey fellas,
Thanks for the replies.
Steve, I think you are correct that the different angles of the photo shoot contributed to the shape of the handles. I know A&A makes absolutely amazing replicas, I'm just wondering about those minor changes.
Besides A&A, do you guys any recommendations on smallsword on other makers?
cheers
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Chris Olsen
Location: Saint Paul Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Sat 13 Jan, 2007 5:07 am Post subject: |
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ok bare in mind I am about as devoted to Arms and Armor as any person could be (it's almost as if i occasionaly work there for credit towards my next big purchase or something) but in the realm of other good smallswords out there you could try www.roguesteel.com although the pieces are rather plain looking, they are all quite funtional,
hope your holidays were great,
chris
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sat 13 Jan, 2007 10:38 am Post subject: |
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Have you tried e-mailing A&A to ask about any changes? They're very willing to communicate with customers.
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Andrew Koo
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| Posted: Sat 13 Jan, 2007 11:46 am Post subject: |
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Hello there,
Chris, those looks like good value for a "beater" piece. Might check them out.
Patrick, I tried sending them emails, but it seems that my mails couldn't get through, kept getting them sent back to me (server problem perhaps?). I'll try again in a few days time.
cheers
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Mon 15 Jan, 2007 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| Edward Hitchens wrote: | | For instance, I learned that their Henry V sword will now be made with a hollow-ground blade just like the original in Westminster Abbey. It's also important to realize that no handmade item will be machine perfect; a feature that (in my opinion) adds to the sword's significance as an artistic as well as a historic item. |
Aaaargh! No! Now I'm torn between that hollow-ground type and the Albion Kingmaker. If A&A also uses hot peening on the pommel of the hollow ground Henry V, I'll consign both manufacturers to the deepest regions of Hell for making the choice so difficult!
BTW, are there any reviews of the Albion Kingmaker or the hollow-ground A&A Henry V in the works? I'd certainly like to see one before buying either of them.
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Jonathon Janusz
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| Posted: Mon 15 Jan, 2007 5:23 am Post subject: |
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If I remember correctly, the Henry V is peened over a rivet block to secure the pommel. Also, a choice between the Kingmaker and the Henry V may not be a fair apples-to-apples comparison. Although they sound similar on paper, these are two very different swords. . .
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Mon 15 Jan, 2007 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| Lafayette C Curtis wrote: |
BTW, are there any reviews of the Albion Kingmaker or the hollow-ground A&A Henry V in the works? I'd certainly like to see one before buying either of them. |
As to the former, there is a review in the planning stages for this site, but it likely won't be published any time soon. No one has contacted us about the hollow-ground Henry V as of yet, either.
As for hot-peening the pommel, I'd love to see people be less fixated on that. Whether or not heat was used in the peening is much less important than how well and tightly the components fit together. Both hot and cold peening can be plenty durable.
If done properly, there is nothing wrong with cold peening and it's a historical technique. I would think peening with heat in period would have been hard as you probably have to stick the end of the sword in the fire to heat it up and hope that the as-yet-unsecured components wouldn't fall off into the fire.... Do we have evidence of heat being used to peen period sword? After all, they didn't have the convenience of a bench vise and torch like we see on Albion's site.
The cool part about Albion's system is that the grip is not required to keep the components stable; everything is wedged together permanently before the grip is applied. But, a compression fit with tightly fit components like A&A uses is indeed historical as well and can be quite stable too. The parts just need a good and careful fit. Even then, they can loosen over time like the period swords we see with loose guards and/or pommels.
From what Oakeshott says, some swords were obviously made with a sandwich style grip which can really only be applied after everything else is in place (a la Albion). Some were obviously made with a burned-on one-piece grip a la A&A. Some grips shapes necessitate one method or the other. The shape, when, and how you make the grip does a lot to determine which system you can use.
From what I've been told, you can only hot peen if the grip is not yet in place. Otherwise, the heat on the pommel and tang might do bad things to the grip.  A&A burns their grips onto the tang, which means it must be in place before the pommel can be peened on. Albion makes all their grips of the sandwich-style.
If both companies wanted to be uber-historical they'd each offer both methods (and more) wherever appropriate for certain eras and styles since not every sword was assembled the same way.
Also, as a reminder, the Henry V and Kingmaker swords are of the same type and era, but are not different versions of the same sword. The Kingmaker is based off a different sword from Oakeshott's Records of the Medieval Sword, sword XVIII.3 not XVIII.1.
If there's any further discussion to be had of anything besides the smallsword, let's do it elsewhere to keep this thread on-topic.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 15 Jan, 2007 8:20 am Post subject: Smallswords |
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Hi Andrew
Thanks for the questions. I had responded to one of your emails but it seems like it did not get through to you as well as some of yours bouncing back. Not sure if it is my email server, but it may well be as they have had some issues of late.
To the smallsword. Its been a while but I believe we did the pommel nuts to Stephen's request if I remember correctly. The smallsword was first designed as a basic piece for stage combat. It was then upgraded a bit, but we kept the threaded pommel with no pommel nut as the standard design to keep cost down and the product consistent for the sage combat users. These are the majority of purchasers for this item. The reenactment users have become more interested in this piece as a nice clean piece that can fit most periods of smallsword use and with the adjustments to the blade we have started doing they are very happy with the period feel of the piece as well.
We can do one with a pommel nut if you like, we usually try to accommodate our customers needs as much as we can. This would also apply to the hot peened tang on a sword if one wished. There wold be an additional fee for such alterations based on any extra time or procedures needed.
There are many different hilt configurations and assembly techniques. If one has a particular type they would prefer just inquire and we can let you know if it is possible or we may hae a recommendation on a particular piece if it is appropriate. Most modern sword makes will have a general approach to putting a piece together that they are happy with for look, durability and design, but none of those who I would classify as quality producers claim that there is only one right way.
Please let me know if there are any questions I missed.
Best Regards
Craig
A&A Inc.
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Andrew Koo
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| Posted: Mon 15 Jan, 2007 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: Smallswords |
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| Craig Johnson wrote: | Hi Andrew
Thanks for the questions. I had responded to one of your emails but it seems like it did not get through to you as well as some of yours bouncing back. Not sure if it is my email server, but it may well be as they have had some issues of late.
To the smallsword. Its been a while but I believe we did the pommel nuts to Stephen's request if I remember correctly. The smallsword was first designed as a basic piece for stage combat. It was then upgraded a bit, but we kept the threaded pommel with no pommel nut as the standard design to keep cost down and the product consistent for the sage combat users. These are the majority of purchasers for this item. The reenactment users have become more interested in this piece as a nice clean piece that can fit most periods of smallsword use and with the adjustments to the blade we have started doing they are very happy with the period feel of the piece as well.
We can do one with a pommel nut if you like, we usually try to accommodate our customers needs as much as we can. This would also apply to the hot peened tang on a sword if one wished. There wold be an additional fee for such alterations based on any extra time or procedures needed.
There are many different hilt configurations and assembly techniques. If one has a particular type they would prefer just inquire and we can let you know if it is possible or we may hae a recommendation on a particular piece if it is appropriate. Most modern sword makes will have a general approach to putting a piece together that they are happy with for look, durability and design, but none of those who I would classify as quality producers claim that there is only one right way.
Please let me know if there are any questions I missed.
Best Regards
Craig
A&A Inc. |
Hi Craig, Thanks for taking time to reply. Thats exactly the info I needed, and I'm impressed that A&A is offering such diverse options even for prommel attachments. I've sent in my order through email again, I hope this this time it'll get through.
You guys have a great day.
cheers
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Tue 16 Jan, 2007 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: | | Lafayette C Curtis wrote: |
BTW, are there any reviews of the Albion Kingmaker or the hollow-ground A&A Henry V in the works? I'd certainly like to see one before buying either of them. |
As to the former, there is a review in the planning stages for this site, but it likely won't be published any time soon. No one has contacted us about the hollow-ground Henry V as of yet, either.
As for hot-peening the pommel, I'd love to see people be less fixated on that. Whether or not heat was used in the peening is much less important than how well and tightly the components fit together. Both hot and cold peening can be plenty durable.
If done properly, there is nothing wrong with cold peening and it's a historical technique. I would think peening with heat in period would have been hard as you probably have to stick the end of the sword in the fire to heat it up and hope that the as-yet-unsecured components wouldn't fall off into the fire.... Do we have evidence of heat being used to peen period sword? After all, they didn't have the convenience of a bench vise and torch like we see on Albion's site.
The cool part about Albion's system is that the grip is not required to keep the components stable; everything is wedged together permanently before the grip is applied. But, a compression fit with tightly fit components like A&A uses is indeed historical as well and can be quite stable too. The parts just need a good and careful fit. Even then, they can loosen over time like the period swords we see with loose guards and/or pommels.
From what Oakeshott says, some swords were obviously made with a sandwich style grip which can really only be applied after everything else is in place (a la Albion). Some were obviously made with a burned-on one-piece grip a la A&A. Some grips shapes necessitate one method or the other. The shape, when, and how you make the grip does a lot to determine which system you can use.
From what I've been told, you can only hot peen if the grip is not yet in place. Otherwise, the heat on the pommel and tang might do bad things to the grip. A&A burns their grips onto the tang, which means it must be in place before the pommel can be peened on. Albion makes all their grips of the sandwich-style.
If both companies wanted to be uber-historical they'd each offer both methods (and more) wherever appropriate for certain eras and styles since not every sword was assembled the same way.
Also, as a reminder, the Henry V and Kingmaker swords are of the same type and era, but are not different versions of the same sword. The Kingmaker is based off a different sword from Oakeshott's Records of the Medieval Sword, sword XVIII.3 not XVIII.1.
If there's any further discussion to be had of anything besides the smallsword, let's do it elsewhere to keep this thread on-topic. |
Ack! That's a much more detailed response than what I bargained for.
Now, the problem is whether I'd choose the one based on a specific example (the A&A Henry V) or the one that seems to have a potential (albeit marginal) advantage in durability. I have no doubts that I'd want to get both if I had the money to do so--everybody knows I'm a Type XVIII freak--but I don't, so I have to judge which one I'd probably like to save for and buy first before saving for the other.
BTW, now that Mr. Johnson's in on the topic (or Craig? I'd dearly like to know how he prefers to be addressed), I can't help veering a little off-topic and wondering how much A&A would charge for the simplest kind of historically-appropriate scabbard for the Henry V and the Town Guard sword. If it's not too much trouble to extrapolate teh costs beforehand. 
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Steve Fabert
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| Posted: Tue 16 Jan, 2007 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| Lafayette C Curtis wrote: |
BTW, are there any reviews of the Albion Kingmaker or the hollow-ground A&A Henry V in the works? I'd certainly like to see one before buying either of them. |
I would be happy to answer any questions about the Kingmaker that you may have in advance of the posting of a review, if you care to send me a private message. I have both a Kingmaker and one of the earlier Henry V swords, and would be willing to pass on my impressions. I second Chad's comment that the A&A Henry V is a very different sword than the Kingmaker, and will still be very different even when they begin to use a hollow ground blade.
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Tue 16 Jan, 2007 8:22 am Post subject: |
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General remarks about handling qualities, then? I'd rather wait for the review to get the details, but I'd be grateful if you can provide a basic comparison in terms of handling, balance, and the like.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 16 Jan, 2007 8:37 am Post subject: |
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Once again, if you want to discuss these two swords any more, please do it in a new thread as I asked before.
For any more questions on construction, please see this spotlight topic: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=4901
Anything further in this thread needs to be about the A&A smallsword.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Tue 16 Jan, 2007 9:11 am Post subject: |
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Ah. Sorry. I meant to send that in a PM, but it seems like I've clicked the wrong reply button.
(Still trying to come to terms with the new optical mouse after years on roller balls.)
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