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Hugo Voisine
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 Posted: Sun 24 Dec, 2006 9:10 am Post subject: 15th century French armor... |
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Hi everyone, and merry Christmas ! 
I just finished to read the article in the Features section of the site presenting the work of Étienne Delaune, and I'm now looking for books or website presenting french armors from the previous century...
I think I've read somewhere that the english armors during that period was something of an hybrid between the Milanese and Gothic style (like this reproduction from White Rose Armoury : http://www.whiterosearmoury.co.uk/New%20Folder/rob.JPG). Is it also true for the french armor ?
Thanks
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William Knight
Location: Mid atlantic, US Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Mon 25 Dec, 2006 10:55 am Post subject: |
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I'd check Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight out from a local library, as it has a great deal of information. Also, check out the Bibliotheque National's resources of illuminated manuscripts http://gallica.bnf.fr/scripts/Page.php?/Themes/ImaMA.htm?. But in short, from what I've gathered is, yes, any 'native' french armour would look like a sort of combination of the gothic and milanese styles in its combination of roundness and fluting. I don't think french armours would necessarily have the particuarly 'english' details like the riveted plackart, but I'm not sure. So I'd look it up myself if I were you.
-Wilhelm
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Hugo Voisine
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| Posted: Wed 27 Dec, 2006 11:45 am Post subject: |
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Thanks William, I'll be sure to get a copy of Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight.
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Wed 27 Dec, 2006 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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Helo all!
Hugo,
Another couple of books that may be useful for the study of French armour of the 15th century are be Paul Martin's Arms and Armour from the 9th to the 17th Century and Claude Blair's European Armour Circa 1066 to Circa 1700. Both are a bit old, and out-of-print, but you might find them used through the bookstore on the myArmoury site. I believe that the Paul Martin book was originally published in French, so it suffers from being a translated work, but it presents some information and pictures covering areas that many of the more Anglo-centric works neglect. The information may be a bit old, but it has some interesting illustrations. Blair's book is also a bit old, but he has a section in his chapter "The Great Period, c. 1410-1500" about "Armour Outside Italy and Germany". Again, Blair covers a wider range of regions than many of the more Anglo-centered works.
Here's some of what Blair says about 15th century French armour in European Armour Circa 1066 to Circa 1700:
| Claude Blair wrote: |
In France, Paris was an important centre from an early date, while Chambli (Beauvais) and Chartres seem to have been particularly famous for mail-making. Other French centres were Valenciennes, Bordeaux and, above all, Tours and Lyons where, from the early 15th century onwards, many Italian armourers were working, often for the king. In 1494 Gabrielle and Francesco Merate of Milan were sent to Arbois in Burgundy for three years to make armours for the Emperor in the Burgundian style. Nothing is at present known of the history of their workshop or whether other armourers worked at Arbois but two examples of their work are known, both marked ARBOIS under a crowsn, and both rather Italian in style...
During the whole of the 15th century all parts of Western Europe seem to have favoured armour that can best be described as Italian with variations... |
Blair didn't necessarily elaborate on what way the French armour varied from the Italian. Unfortunately, many of these books are old, out-of-print, and hard to find.
French Armies of the Hundred Years War 1337-1453 by David Nicolle shows a photo of a complete Italian armour made circa 1460 which may have been made for export to either Germany or France. It's from the De Dino Collection. However, like all Osprey books, the text doesn't go into much detail about the style of French armour. It just mentions that the best armours were probably imported from Italy, and that armour made in France was influenced by the Italian style.
I hope this helped a bit.
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Hugo Voisine
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| Posted: Wed 27 Dec, 2006 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Richard, and thanks for those references. Do you know under witch title Arms and Armour from the 9th to the 17th Century may have been printed in french ?
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 27 Dec, 2006 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Hugo Voisine wrote: | | Hi Richard, and thanks for those references. Do you know under witch title Arms and Armour from the 9th to the 17th Century may have been printed in french ? |
" ARMES ET ARMURES DE CHARLEMAGNE À LOUIS XIV " © 1967 Office du Livre, Fribourg
I have this book since around the original publishing date and I'm NOT selling it.  
Lot of great drawings of original statuary that may or may not still exist intact as a lot of these may have lost details due to air polution.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional
Location: upstate NY Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 587
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| Posted: Thu 28 Dec, 2006 7:10 am Post subject: |
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Jeanne d'Arc; ses Costumes, son Armure by Adrian Harmand is also old, but covers the first half of the 15th c. quite well. The armour of Friedrich the Victorious that's in Vienna was made 'in the French style' c. 1450. Later, though, the style changes in a substantially more German direction, as can be seen in a biography of St. Louis done in 1480 (see Saint Louis; Roi de France published by Chene in 1990. It isn't quite German, though. I suppose I should point out that many of the best 'French' armour makers were ethnic Italians that had moved north.
jamesarlen.com
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Hugo Voisine
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| Posted: Thu 28 Dec, 2006 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I have this book since around the original publishing date and I'm NOT selling it. |
Too bad. I suppose I can check on eBay however.
James - So, essentially, the armours made in France where more Milanese-inspired by the beginning of the century but the fashion moved toward the Gothic style after 1450-1460 (with some degree of overlap)... ?
Off-topic : the 16th century harness on your website is splendid.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 28 Dec, 2006 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Hugo Voisine wrote: | | Quote: | | I have this book since around the original publishing date and I'm NOT selling it. |
Too bad. I suppose I can check on eBay however.
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I hope my comment didn't sound snarky or a taunt ? ( I'm fairly sure you understood this but not taking any chances.  )
Basically, I meant it's a great book that I would only very reluctantly part with and I hope you can find a copy of it.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Sam Haverkamp
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 03 Jan, 2007 11:39 pm Post subject: Étienne Delaune |
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text removed by author
Last edited by Sam Haverkamp on Mon 08 Jan, 2007 10:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Hugo Voisine
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| Posted: Thu 04 Jan, 2007 6:35 am Post subject: |
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Hi Sam, here is the article I was talking about : http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_delaune.html
This breastplate / backplate looks great. Thanks for sharing.
« Que dites-vous ?... C'est inutile ?... Je le sais !
Mais on ne se bat pas dans l'espoir du succès !
Oh ! non, c'est bien plus beau lorsque c'est inutile ! »
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Thu 04 Jan, 2007 7:06 am Post subject: Re: Étienne Delaune |
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| Sam Haverkamp wrote: | I have so many more pieces to share, but for some reason it only lets me post a couple pictures at a time.
Cheers
Sam |
The forum will allow up to eight attachments per post. Please see here for more info (from our FAQ page): http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/faq.php?mode=attach
If you are unable to attach eight to a single post, please let Nathan Robinson know what error message you receive when trying to add those attachments.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Thu 04 Jan, 2007 9:42 am Post subject: |
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Damn. Those armors are drop dead beautiful.
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Sam Haverkamp
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 04 Jan, 2007 10:35 am Post subject: Bask in the glory of Medieval Art |
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text removed by author
Last edited by Sam Haverkamp on Mon 08 Jan, 2007 10:54 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Sam Haverkamp
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 04 Jan, 2007 10:51 am Post subject: |
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text removed by author
Last edited by Sam Haverkamp on Mon 08 Jan, 2007 10:55 pm; edited 2 times in total
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James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional
Location: upstate NY Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 587
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| Posted: Fri 05 Jan, 2007 10:18 am Post subject: |
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Hello, Sam,
I do cleaning, and I'm NOT an idiot! Not one of the many 'happy butchers' who do squirrely stuff to the piece that damages it forever.
Hugo - the construction of French armour after Agincourt is pretty much Italian, but with a preference for 'grand bacinets', and, later, salades, not so many armets as you would see in Italy. It is also being influenced by Burgundian fashion. Later, when it is more heavily impacted by the 'gothic' style, it is like English armour of the same period in that the style isn't really quite like the German version. For example, the 'tails' of the salades don't draw to a point, like the German, they are rounded, and often quite short, more like what many people call a 'barbute'. Some have almost no tail at all.
jamesarlen.com
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Hugo Voisine
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| Posted: Fri 05 Jan, 2007 11:40 am Post subject: |
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James - Thanks for the precisions.
Sam - Your collection of bucklers is truly awesome. I wish one day I will be able to own such fine pieces.
« Que dites-vous ?... C'est inutile ?... Je le sais !
Mais on ne se bat pas dans l'espoir du succès !
Oh ! non, c'est bien plus beau lorsque c'est inutile ! »
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Sam Haverkamp
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 05 Jan, 2007 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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text removed by author
Last edited by Sam Haverkamp on Mon 08 Jan, 2007 10:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Manouchehr M.
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Rod Walker
Location: NSW, Australia. Joined: 05 Feb 2004
Posts: 230
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| Posted: Fri 05 Jan, 2007 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Sam Haverkamp wrote: |
It is definitely a lost art, you dont see anything like this being made in this century.
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Actually there is a chap by the name of Ugo Serrano,,,, you must say it with Passion,,,,,, that does some amazing work.
www.ugoserrano.com
Enjoy.
Cheers
Rod
Jouster
www.jousting.com.au
"Come! Let us lay a lance in rest,
And tilt at windmills under a wild sky!
For who would live so petty and unblessed
That dare not tilt at something, ere he die?"
--Errantry, John Galsworthy
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This is a standard topic