I've seen a similar helmet offered by two different outfits as an "Athenian Hoplite Helmet" which looks more to me like a Phrygian helmet. Anyone know anything about them?
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| George H. wrote: |
| I've seen a similar helmet offered by two different outfits as an "Athenian Hoplite Helmet" which looks more to me like a Phrygian helmet. Anyone know anything about them? |
I think the name 'Phrygian helmet' is a modern invention anyway. The fact is helmets of this type were very popular in most parts of Greece in the 4th century BC. They are frequently depicted on the grave stelae of 4th century BC Athenian hoplites.
This picture is from an Osprey book (I can't remember which one):
I don't remember ever having seen a contemporaneous illustration of the helmet with the peak riveted onto it. That looks pretty bogus to me.
No, there are definitely some originals riveted together like that. Overall these repros seem pretty much correct, though I'd want to check against as many originals as possible before buying one myself. They probably aren't completely accurate, but might be "good enough", depending on your needs. A greater concern to me is the color--what kind of metal is this? Why the "antiqued" look? It's probably not bronze, so brass would be the next best thing, but they could even be treated steel (not good).
Khairete,
Matthew
Khairete,
Matthew
| Matthew Amt wrote: |
| No, there are definitely some originals riveted together like that. Overall these repros seem pretty much correct, though I'd want to check against as many originals as possible before buying one myself. They probably aren't completely accurate, but might be "good enough", depending on your needs. A greater concern to me is the color--what kind of metal is this? Why the "antiqued" look? It's probably not bronze, so brass would be the next best thing, but they could even be treated steel (not good).
Khairete, Matthew |
Well, I stand corrected. Thank you, Matt.
| Hisham Gaballa wrote: |
| I think the name 'Phrygian helmet' is a modern invention anyway. The fact is helmets of this type were very popular in most parts of Greece in the 4th century BC. They are frequently depicted on the grave stelae of 4th century BC Athenian hoplites. |
My understanding is that the Phrygians wore caps with forward-sloping peaks, hence helmets made in the style of the cap conveniently came to be known as Phrygian helmets. Do you know if this type of helmet was given any particular name in the ancient sources? Although I knew the style of helmet was popular among Macedonian forces, I was unaware of any particular connection with Athenian hoplites; thanks for the citation.
| Matthew Amt wrote: |
| A greater concern to me is the color--what kind of metal is this? Why the "antiqued" look? It's probably not bronze, so brass would be the next best thing, but they could even be treated steel (not good). |
The first example looks like a straightforward substitution of steel for bronze; the second looks like some kind of crapped-up brass.
Does anyone know why brass is so often used for helmets when bronze sheet metal is available from dealers? Surely bronze can't be that much more expensive than brass. Why not pay a little bit more for something that looks a lot more authentic? I've often wondered if people are confused by terminology: there is a commonly used brass out there that goes by the name of "commercial bronze."
It's a good question! It's possible that the metal supply is very different in India than here in the US--I remember Deepeeka saying something about trouble getting bronze. It could also be a cost difference, though I haven't done much comparison shopping.
One thing to remember is that *silicon* bronze seems to be readily available, in pieces as large as you like. But it has little or no tin in it, whereas ancient bronze was copper with 5 to 15 percent tin. So there's going to be a difference in color as well as in working qualities, though from what I've seen the color will at least be much more bronze-like than modern brass (30 percent zinc). The closest common modern alloy to ancient bronze is phosphor bronze, with 5 percent tin. That's quite accurate for many sheet metal items such as helmets and armor. Problem is, it never seems to be made in pieces more than 12" wide! You can do a helmet in several pieces from that, easily, but not a one-piece breastplate or shield--very annoying!
Overall, yeah, I'd definitely prefer silicon bronze to brass, in most cases. Even Roman helmets, which often were actually brass, had a lot less zinc in them than modern yellow brass, so they'd be a little "redder" in color. All too often, though, there are much greater problems with a repro than the exact shade of the metal! So it's not our greatest concern.
Matthew
One thing to remember is that *silicon* bronze seems to be readily available, in pieces as large as you like. But it has little or no tin in it, whereas ancient bronze was copper with 5 to 15 percent tin. So there's going to be a difference in color as well as in working qualities, though from what I've seen the color will at least be much more bronze-like than modern brass (30 percent zinc). The closest common modern alloy to ancient bronze is phosphor bronze, with 5 percent tin. That's quite accurate for many sheet metal items such as helmets and armor. Problem is, it never seems to be made in pieces more than 12" wide! You can do a helmet in several pieces from that, easily, but not a one-piece breastplate or shield--very annoying!
Overall, yeah, I'd definitely prefer silicon bronze to brass, in most cases. Even Roman helmets, which often were actually brass, had a lot less zinc in them than modern yellow brass, so they'd be a little "redder" in color. All too often, though, there are much greater problems with a repro than the exact shade of the metal! So it's not our greatest concern.
Matthew
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