| Author |
Message |
Greyson Brown
|
 Posted: Mon 18 Dec, 2006 10:14 am Post subject: |
 |
|
Patrick,
You (and everyone else who has stated it) are right; we can't do a whole lot better than generalizations. I made the comments I did, not because I dissagreed with you, simply because I learned last night that I had been suffering from some misconceptions, and thought it might be a good idea to share those lessons.
Erik Schmidt's name came up several times during our discussion last night. He really does seem to be the living expert on this stuff. Here's hoping his inbox doesn't get too full. 
-Grey
"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
|
|
  |
 |
|
Patrick Kelly
|
| Posted: Mon 18 Dec, 2006 10:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Jeremy V. Krause wrote: | Late 15th c. is one thing 11th-12th c. is another. GDFB and Forth Armoury do not seem to offer sufficient reproduction of these eras.
Jeremy |
I've seen some of the recent things GDFB and Erik Schmid are working on. I believe we may see a change in that in the not too distant future. This is something I'm very excited about personally.
Last edited by Patrick Kelly on Mon 18 Dec, 2006 10:27 am; edited 1 time in total
|
|
 |
|
|
Patrick Kelly
|
| Posted: Mon 18 Dec, 2006 10:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Greyson Brown wrote: | Patrick,
You (and everyone else who has stated it) are right; we can't do a whole lot better than generalizations. I made the comments I did, not because I dissagreed with you, simply because I learned last night that I had been suffering from some misconceptions, and thought it might be a good idea to share those lessons. |
I didn't think you were disagreeing. I was just posting a general observation for the masses.  Discussions in this field of study tend to degenerate into absolutes. This is something I personally try hard to avoid. "This is absolutely not right" is often no more accurate than "This is absolutely right".
| Quote: | | Erik Schmidt's name came up several times during our discussion last night. He really does seem to be the living expert on this stuff. Here's hoping his inbox doesn't get too full. |
He really is the "go-to" guy as far as mail is concerned. Anyone wanting a clear answer concerning all things mail (or as clear as is possible) should really contact him.
erikdschmid@charter.net
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jeremy V. Krause
|
| Posted: Mon 18 Dec, 2006 11:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Patrick Kelly wrote: |
I've seen some of the recent things GDFB and Erik Schmid are working on. I believe we may see a change in that in the not too distant future. This is something I'm very excited about personally. |
This is surprising and good news Patrick! If you are right then perhaps I can see a hauberk in my future.
Jeremy
|
|
|
|
|
|
Patrick Kelly
|
| Posted: Tue 19 Dec, 2006 3:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Jeremy V. Krause wrote: | | Patrick Kelly wrote: |
I've seen some of the recent things GDFB and Erik Schmid are working on. I believe we may see a change in that in the not too distant future. This is something I'm very excited about personally. |
This is surprising and good news Patrick! If you are right then perhaps I can see a hauberk in my future.
Jeremy |
Unfortunately for we 11th century mail-men the recent news is disappointing. I heard from Erik and apparently he and GDFB have had a parting of the ways so there'll be nothing new on that front. However, he is working with another company now to produce a similar product. He didn't elaborate on that but we may still see something down the road.
|
|
|
|
|
Bruno Giordan
|
| Posted: Wed 20 Dec, 2006 5:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | Unfortunately for we 11th century mail-men the recent news is disappointing. I heard from Erik and apparently he and GDFB have had a parting of the ways so there\'ll be nothing new on that front. However, he is working with another company now to produce a similar product. He didn\'t elaborate on that but we may still see something down the road. |
Jeremy, there is abundance of materials on the ent on tools and methods for making at home some pretty good riveted maille.
An entire yahoo group, a group that often sees the interventions of Mr Schmidt as well as that of many good reconstructors of maile and tools. is dedicated to riveted maille.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rivetedmaille/
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jeremy V. Krause
|
| Posted: Wed 20 Dec, 2006 6:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Jeremy, there is abundance of materials on the ent on tools and methods for making at home some pretty good riveted maille.
An entire yahoo group, a group that often sees the interventions of Mr Schmidt as well as that of many good reconstructors of maile and tools. is dedicated to riveted maille.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rivetedmaille/ |
Bruno,
I know that some folks make maille at home but from what I have seen even current reveted mail links feature exagerated overlapped sections where the revet is secured. Also I cannot recall seeing any round section links. I also am not sure if the revets are the correct shape.
In addition to these conserns maille was made by skilled tradesmen as were swords and other arms. Why do people feel that they can produce accurate maille at home when most will abmit that accurate weapons cannot be produced in this manner? Even by someone with a forge available to them and a certain knowledge of metalworking making accurate weapons is not possible. The dynamics of the sword and other arms are complex and it takes someone with a keen and specialized understanding of the pertinent factors to produce quality peices. I would think that maille is the same story. I only but weapons that have what I feel is a high degree of historical accuracy. I do not buy cheaper swords for instance because I do not feel that they are accurate enough. I would just rather not have any swords than own a poorly made or inaccurate one. I guess I think the same way about maille- if the best I can do is somewhat accurate maille I just wont own maille. Maybe I'm missing something. What do foliks think?
Jeremy
|
|
|
|
|
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
|
| Posted: Wed 20 Dec, 2006 8:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
Guys,
Please be careful with how you quote from other people's posts. I just had to clean up two messed-up posts to make them readable.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
|
|
  |
|
Craig Peters
|
| Posted: Wed 20 Dec, 2006 8:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Jeremy V. Krause wrote: |
Bruno,
I know that some folks make maille at home but from what I have seen even current reveted mail links feature exagerated overlapped sections where the revet is secured. Also I cannot recall seeing any round section links. I also am not sure if the revets are the correct shape.
In addition to these conserns maille was made by skilled tradesmen as were swords and other arms. Why do people feel that they can produce accurate maille at home when most will abmit that accurate weapons cannot be produced in this manner? Even by someone with a forge available to them and a certain knowledge of metalworking making accurate weapons is not possible. The dynamics of the sword and other arms are complex and it takes someone with a keen and specialized understanding of the pertinent factors to produce quality peices. I would think that maille is the same story. I only but weapons that have what I feel is a high degree of historical accuracy. I do not buy cheaper swords for instance because I do not feel that they are accurate enough. I would just rather not have any swords than own a poorly made or inaccurate one. I guess I think the same way about maille- if the best I can do is somewhat accurate maille I just wont own maille. Maybe I'm missing something. What do foliks think?
Jeremy |
Besides the points you've already raised Jeremy, mail is incredibly time consuming and not that much fun to make. I haven't tried to make any remotely historically accurate mail, but the one time a few years back that I did fiddle with metal rings I found that even the basic 4 in 1 pattern takes a long time to make, nevermind having to make mail which follows the contours of a human body. Other people may enjoy doing it, but I think the effort needed to make mail is just one more reason why I'd rather buy it than make it.
|
|
|
|
|
John Cooksey
|
| Posted: Wed 20 Dec, 2006 8:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
You know, back in the day, Dark Age and Medieval fighting men didn't really fear death or injury in battle. No, what they truly feared was the attention and the intervention of the Dreaded Maille Fashion Police.
"Excuse me, sir, but your byrnie does not feature the correct construction techniques for use in this area, at this time. You will have to take it off . . . "
"NO! But, but I paid 10 cows for this maille shirt----the guy at the Allthing booth said this was THE pattern to be wearing this year . . . . Awww . . . . . "
Seriously, as a historian and archaeologist, I am interested in how these things were made, when, where, and by whom. I am interested in the nitty gritty little details of material and construction and provenance.
But, given the wide variety that *had* to exist within any given region or time period, I am not going to exhaust myself with the intricate details of getting one piece exactly right, and saying that such was the way it was.
Rather, I am going to try to create something that I think is a reasonable approximation of that used in period and in-region.
Flat rings, round rings, wedge rivets, round rivets, stamped rings, welded-rings-----everything was used, sometime and someplace, in every combination.
A few years ago, everyone wanted all flat rings with all-rivetted construction---new data indicates that isn't always correct, so why worry about it? Just go with something you like, and remember that these things were fairly generic and often got traded around a bit. That's my rule of thumb for me, anyway. I ain't preachin'.
As a Germanic warrior in the Dark Ages, I would have been equally happy with Gaulish, Roman, or Steppe mail, and probably would have access to all of it through actual trade and spoils. . . . .
Heck, I'da set up shop and made my own darned mail, using captured slaves and low-paid apprentices for the scut work. (grin)
I didn't surrender, but they took my horse and made him surrender.
|
|
|
|
|
Bruno Giordan
|
| Posted: Wed 20 Dec, 2006 9:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Jeremy, there is abundance of materials on the ent on tools and methods for making at home some pretty good riveted maille.
An entire yahoo group, a group that often sees the interventions of Mr Schmidt as well as that of many good reconstructors of maile and tools. is dedicated to riveted maille.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rivetedmaille
Bruno,
I know that some folks make maille at home but from what I have seen even current reveted mail links feature exagerated overlapped sections where the revet is secured. Also I cannot recall seeing any round section links. I also am not sure if the revets are the correct shape.
In addition to these conserns maille was made by skilled tradesmen as were swords and other arms. Why do people feel that they can produce accurate maille at home when most will abmit that accurate weapons cannot be produced in this manner? Even by someone with a forge available to them and a certain knowledge of metalworking making accurate weapons is not possible. The dynamics of the sword and other arms are complex and it takes someone with a keen and specialized understanding of the pertinent factors to produce quality peices. I would think that maille is the same story. I only but weapons that have what I feel is a high degree of historical accuracy. I do not buy cheaper swords for instance because I do not feel that they are accurate enough. I would just rather not have any swords than own a poorly made or inaccurate one. I guess I think the same way about maille- if the best I can do is somewhat accurate maille I just wont own maille. Maybe I\'m missing something. What do foliks think?
Jeremy |
What I often see in US reenactment circles is a true terror of dealing with the past in a supposed \"anhistorical\" way.
Well, one thing is to wear a nylon fabric reconstructed dress, another is instead pretending to frame past in precise clasification slots, each one being strictly accomodating specifical shapes and materials.
As the archeologists well know, the past of our species carry an immense range aof gods and inventions, often objects of very modern shapes and conception emerge prepotently to remind us that our ancestors were much more ingenious and also much more technically advanced that we can think .
I have examined pieces of mail from the renaissance that are undocumented, and perfect: tiny rivets (3 -4 mm outside), so tightly knit that they form a true mail fabric capable of adapting to an arm like a glove.
Pretty surprising, isn\'t it?
At the same time you could notice that museums host the most diverse type of mail, which defy a standard classification.
This is als true of every other kind of artifact.
And we must add that as it is today, in the past there were artisans and industries who produced pieces of the most diverse equality and workmanships, ranging from crude to artistic.
So the peices of maille made by modern reconstructors will set themselves in a probably lower cathegory, but they are not devoid of authenticity: surely if we had the possibility to confront them against an hypothetical database of all the maille garments ever made we would find something closely similar to their style.
For an example, I have acces to a XV century forge, still extant with its two hearths, its tools, its trip hammer: many hammers, scissors, anvil parts etc can find an exact counterpart in renaissance paintings we know well.
So, if I compare let\'s say five pairs of big scissors, they will differ in construction details and overall appearance from one of each other.
There is no right one, there are variations in the same design, many of them substantial.
Last edited by Bruno Giordan on Wed 20 Dec, 2006 2:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
|
| Posted: Wed 20 Dec, 2006 9:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
Bruno,
Please fix the quotes in your post so it's correct by removing the "\"'s around the name in [quote=\"Jeremy V. Krause\"]. Please also decide if you really need to quote two posters in your reply.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jeremy V. Krause
|
| Posted: Wed 20 Dec, 2006 10:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
John, Bruno, I feel I must clarify my problems with the current state of reproduction maille,
My consern is not necessarily only with the design of the rings, or only with the shape of the rivets, or the ID- it is with the sum total of these factors that produces maille which does not capture the essecence of original maille. To say that reproduction maille may more closely mirror lower quality original maille is like saying that MRL's and Paul Chen's swords mirror poorer quality original swords. They do not mirror ANY period swords because they lack the sum total of features that constitute ANY period sword whether high or low quality. They are merely sword shaped objects.
Reproduction maille, by the nature of it's manufacture- at least at this time- shows itself to be modern. It's structure makes clear that it was not assembled in a period correct manner. Now if an individual had a forge and tools closely linked to historical tools, and drew their own wire, and had the knowledge of how to use these tools and the knowledge of maille design- whether custom OR munitions-grade- then they would theoretcially produce authentic looking maille.
But to order modern steel links and rivets from a company and use their modern rivet-setting tool one will not produce authentic looking maille because one isn''t making maille the way the maille was made. .
Jeremy
|
|
|
|
|
|
Patrick Kelly
|
| Posted: Wed 20 Dec, 2006 2:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Why do people feel that they can produce accurate maille at home when most will abmit that accurate weapons cannot be produced in this manner? |
Perhaps they do or do not, who knows? What they are doing is making an attempt at learning and experimenting rather than throwing up their hands with a "why bother?" The basic form of my own hauberk is accurate in the way it hangs and moves when worn, this is because I spent a considerable amount of time and effort in achieving that. The fine construction of the rings themselves are not accurate for the period being portrayed. However, it was what I had available and I was willing to live with it for that particular project. What it did give me was an invaluable insight into how mail garments should be made, as well as the process of making riveted mail itself. In that respect it was a worthwhile project and the knowledge I gained from the process will prove highly valuable on the next project. It's all about experimenting and learning. If I had chosen to just not bother I never would have learned anything.
| Quote: | | I guess I think the same way about maille- if the best I can do is somewhat accurate maille I just wont own maille. Maybe I'm missing something. What do foliks think? |
What you own is strictly up to you. However, and I don't mean any offense by this but if everyone had you attitude, Jeremy, we wouldn't have accurate swords, armor or any kind of kit available to us to represent any period whatsoever. If everyone said, "I can't do it perfectly so I won't bother" where would we be? Thank goodness some are willing to take less than perfect steps towards an achievable end.
Are any of the swords in your personal collection made with CNC milled blades? Any investment cast furniture? Any blade made from modern steel alloys? Under the criteria you've laid down none of these swords would have any value because they are just as inaccurate as even the best modern mail.
|
|
|
|
|
Bruno Giordan
|
| Posted: Wed 20 Dec, 2006 2:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Jeremy V. Krause wrote: | John, Bruno, I feel I must clarify my problems with the current state of reproduction maille,
My consern is not necessarily only with the design of the rings, or only with the shape of the rivets, or the ID- it is with the sum total of these factors that produces maille which does not capture the essecence of original maille. To say that reproduction maille may more closely mirror lower quality original maille is like saying that MRL's and Paul Chen's swords mirror poorer quality original swords. They do not mirror ANY period swords because they lack the sum total of features that constitute ANY period sword whether high or low quality. They are merely sword shaped objects.
Reproduction maille, by the nature of it's manufacture- at least at this time- shows itself to be modern. It's structure makes clear that it was not assembled in a period correct manner. Now if an individual had a forge and tools closely linked to historical tools, and drew their own wire, and had the knowledge of how to use these tools and the knowledge of maille design- whether custom OR munitions-grade- then they would theoretcially produce authentic looking maille.
But to order modern steel links and rivets from a company and use their modern rivet-setting tool one will not produce authentic looking maille because one isn''t making maille the way the maille was made. .
Jeremy |
I'm really busy to do that, but sooner or later I will scan a pic of a real XII century coif found in mantova's palazzo Ducale by the italian armor expert V. Posio.
It was in a corner, ready to be swept away ..
Well, perfectly round and big rings, a thing anybody would call a fake poor thing, an ill conceived reproduction.
No watershed effect, no D shaped rings ...
I just concur on the fact that modern rings fail in the overlapping area, since the overlaps do not fuse together armoniously, also original seem to be insead joined hot.
But I have seen pics of flattened original mail with flattened rievts that is almost perfectly copied by Schmidt.
I don't see in reprouduced mail as much difference from originals as we have with reproduced and original swords.
Time factor.
Well, people who are young or do have spare time every night can complete an hauberk in less than a year: a good winter project that will last a lifetime.
Obviously people with other duties are better off with buying maille
|
|
|
|
|
Craig Peters
|
| Posted: Thu 21 Dec, 2006 3:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Patrick Kelly wrote: |
Are any of the swords in your personal collection made with CNC milled blades? Any investment cast furniture? Any blade made from modern steel alloys? Under the criteria you've laid down none of these swords would have any value because they are just as inaccurate as even the best modern mail. |
Patrick,
I cannot speak for Jeremy, though I think I share fairly similar views on the subject with him. I know that in my case, I am willing to make compromises for swords. I don't mind the fact that swords I buy have CNC milled blades or use modern alloys. At some point, one has to draw the line between "historical accuracy" and costs. I realize that swords from Albion Armorers or Arms and Armor are not the same as an antique medieval sword. Yet at the same time, I agree with him (and I imagine you would too) that there's a world of difference between a sword from Museum Replicas and one from a company like Albion.
The same sort of reasoning applies for me when it comes to looking at mail as well. I'm willing to make compromises because I know they have to be made to keep the cost reasonable. But that having been said, I'm not about to buy mail without seriously considering what company or individual is making it. And just as you're not making your own swords for your kit, so too am I not planning on making mail- I'd want a certain standard of quality that I know I could not achieve for a long time, it's too time consuming as far as I'm concerned, and I know that there are other people who are willing to pursue it and will do a good enough job for my purposes.
Since I am particularly interested in the 12th century, it is probable that I would want mail that is a good approximation of some of the historical examples from that period. Therefore, I would be careful about the type of mail I purchased. You wouldn't purchase a sword like the Regent for your Norman kit; likewise, I would not want a flat linked mail that fairly closesly conforms to body contours now that I know it's more appropriate for the 14th and 15th centuries. Since, at the moment, to the best of my knowledge, one's choices are butted mail, rivetted mail appropriate for the late Middle Ages or a custom commission, I am not about to order any mail. I don't think this is a matter of having unreasonable standards; rather, it is a matter of not finding anything available which is acceptable according to my personal standard of what I am looking for in terms of authenticity.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jeremy V. Krause
|
| Posted: Thu 21 Dec, 2006 6:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
These are good thoughts,
Patrick I can really see your point that people have to be willing to engage in the learning and growing process in order to engage in the process of raising the authenticity level of arms and armor- I just sort of take the more selfish route of riding on the efforts of others. I selfishly enough will not spend my money on goods and materials that have not yet gained what I deem to be authentic enough. I see the outlook you speak of as sort of "investing" in this hobby- and helping it grow. It's really kind of charitable. For me, as a soical worker, it is difficult enough to contain my spending to upper end production and custom-level A&A.. As my knowledge grows I find that I am just getting more and more picky. I want to buy items that I can always hang onto and always be able to look at and say "that's a pretty nice sword or thats an authentic mace." I don't like when I spend money on something and then don't really like it anymore when I find out it has glaring authenticity issues..
I do own swords manufactured using modern CNC and other means but I do not feel this violates my personal level of commitment to authenticity. I say this because my swords do not "show" themselves to have been manufactured by a CNC machine or modern means. There are no machining marks- threaded pommels etc. I own a custom sword which was forged and there is no perceivable differece between the two items in terms of blade and furniture finish. Modern steels used in sword production do have the same sheen and appearance of historical steels- at least this is my understanding. I guess the main difference between my swords and originals is that my swords lines may be a bit too sterile and perfect- crosses are arrow strait and such. Also the grips on my swords do not feature under-cording, but attempt to simulate it, which kiind of gets on my nerves. Also there is no blade inlay- Patrick and others you may know by now that this is my pet issue. We need to see more blade inlay- I feel like a lone voice crying out in the wilderness here.
Now current maille on the other hand looks like it was made by modern means. Maille authenticity has not yet reached the level that has been reached by sword authenticity. Neither have shields, neither have millitary clothing of the 11th and 12 c. I am excited about what Eric Mchugh is doing with axes and I feel he is moving things forward on that front. Still I will have to wait on maille.
Thanks Craig for your contribution and we will have to keep our eyes open for advances in the maille realm.
Thanks,
Jeremy
|
|
|
|
|
|
Patrick Kelly
|
| Posted: Thu 21 Dec, 2006 1:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Jeremy V. Krause wrote: |
Patrick I can really see your point that people have to be willing to engage in the learning and growing process in order to engage in the process of raising the authenticity level of arms and armor- I just sort of take the more selfish route of riding on the efforts of others. I selfishly enough will not spend my money on goods and materials that have not yet gained what I deem to be authentic enough. I see the outlook you speak of as sort of "investing" in this hobby- and helping it grow. It's really kind of charitable. For me, as a soical worker, it is difficult enough to contain my spending to upper end production and custom-level A&A.. As my knowledge grows I find that I am just getting more and more picky. I want to buy items that I can always hang onto and always be able to look at and say "that's a pretty nice sword or thats an authentic mace." I don't like when I spend money on something and then don't really like it anymore when I find out it has glaring authenticity issues.. |
These are all very good points Jeremy and I agree with you in spirit. For myself the only time I may buy a lower end piece is during a period of curiosity with a new maker, or an old one who's claimed to have improved their product. Being particular is harder on the bank account and usually results in a smaller collection, but it's generally more satisfying. I just think we need to avoid being too critical when we discuss the imperfect efforts of others. I suppose there's nothing wrong with riding on the back of someone willing to do the ground work, it is easier that way. On the other hand we need to give due respect to those willing to take those initially imperfect steps. Nothing comes out perfectly the first time and if it weren't for those willing to make the effort we wouldn't have a hobby.
| Quote: | | Now current maille on the other hand looks like it was made by modern means. |
Yes it does but then again, so do most modern swords if you've seen enough originals to compare.
| Quote: | | Maille authenticity has not yet reached the level that has been reached by sword authenticity. Neither have shields, neither have millitary clothing of the 11th and 12 c. I am excited about what Eric Mchugh is doing with axes and I feel he is moving things forward on that front. Still I will have to wait on maille. |
All too true. For whatever reason, mail is the one area where there's only been recent advancement in replication on a mass scale. It wasn't that long ago when riveted mail just didn't exist in any form. Erics work is extremely exciting.
If anyone really wants a true education on mail I'd again strongly suggest they contact Erik Schmid:
erikdschmid@charter.net
Most of us simply haven't handled enough actual mail to give an educated opinion on what is accurate and what isn't, myself included. I've seen several examples behind museum glass and have handled a few original samples, including one Erik kindly gave me, but all we're really qualified to do is make an uneducated guess and most of the time we're completely off-base. Erik's the guy to go to for information on this subject.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum
|
This is a standard topic