[David Evans]

A good source thro slightly latter is the Janet Arnold Book "Patterns of Fashion 1560 -1620" Amongst the various items of clothing Ms Arnold examing was a doublet from about 1560 that was "thought" to be an arming doublet. From mmory the doublet consisted of three layers of linen canvas, and linen with a padding provided by cotton wool, a very loose worven wool cloth. Over the shoulders and upper body where armoour would rest this padding was 9mm think. 6 paired eyelts were on each shoulder, preseumbly to lace plate armour to

[Nathan Robinson]

hi David-

I just wanted to say that I absolutely recommend Patterns of Fashion: The Cut and Construction of Clothes for Men and Women C1560-1620 by Janet Arnold. It's a fantastic book for anyone interested in history, clothing, or a combination of both. Wonderful book!

[James Barker]

David

You are correct though I think the outer layer is silk. It was stuffed with cotton wool which is a British term for raw cotton. I will look tonight when I get home.

[Randall Moffett]

As far as cotton.....

This clearly at times is NOT cotton wool. Per the Port books of both London and Southampton bales and other large amounts of the stuff is entering into the ports during the 14th and 15th centuries, perhaps earlier but it is outside what I have studied. They are listed clearly as syrian and turkish cotton. There is not any reason england would be importing wool as theirs was known as superior at this time. If I remember right the person I know who examined the black princes gambeson said it was cotton cotton not cotton wool, though I should double check. I do not doubt cotton was used as bales of raw cotton would not be imported inot 14th century england for cloth as they had plenty of wool which was being exported raw. I can only assume it was used as some type of stuffing.

The best person I ever spoke to on this Was Karen Watts, one of the head curators at the RA and the specialist on textile armours. A wonderful person and very helpful. After a few hours talk regarding such things it really helped to undestand the manufacture of these items and their structure. Example. The jack she last examined had raw wool sandwiched inbetween the layers of linen, not just linen layers as is so often stated as the 'jacks' construction but from what I have heard no jack close to the high number of layers stated in the sources has ever been found, all have been much lower. Although I have not made extensive studies on them I think some would have been the very thick types mentioned in accounts but most would have been thinner and without doubt constructed with other materials like raw wool for padding as well as the existant examples show.

RPM

[James Barker]

Randall

Do you know which Jacks she looked at? Were they the three in the Holstentor Museum in Lübeck (two) and Museum in Stendal (one). "Albrecht Dürer. Rüstungen und Waffen" by Heinrich Müller has them listed as linen canvas with cotton stuffing. I would love to know if that info is wrong or if there are more extent examples.

The three I mentioned look like this style from this painting by Simon Marmion. Crucifixion c. 1470:




Janet Arnold also used the term cotton wool when describing the stuffing in the Black Prince garment in her examination she did of it.

[Joe Fults]

I think this is the first I've heard that the thickness of the garmet may have varied over the body. Makes sense that it would, and I'm sure that its has been discussed elsewhere, but still interesting trivia. I don't think many reconstructions are made this way, but that could reflect product ignorance on my part.

[Randall Moffett]

James,

It is being published in the Royal Armouries Journal. I will get the reference info it I can ASAP.

RPM

[James Barker]

[Chuck Russell]

heres some fun pics of the named jacks in our group. the first one is james's 15 layer one with his mail under it. the other 3 are my 24 layered ones. nothing penitrated with the bodkins using 60-70 lb long bows at 20 yards.

[Michal Plezia]

So it appears to be quite strong protection.What about sword cuts/thrusts?

[Randall Moffett]

James,

It looks like it will be first issue for next years publication from what I cn tell. I will keep you pasted as more info arrives.

Chuck,

Did you loose the arrows at the jacks backed by mail? That would seem to make a differece to me.

I read an article not long ago with arrows loosed from a 120 pound bow on jacks and it had a different result, though the range was not very far some 25-30 yards I think.

RPM

[James Barker]

I have never used a sharp on the jack fearing I will cut the outer layers, hand quilting it is a pain. If I get time in 07 I might make a panel and test cut it.