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Antoine M.
Industry Professional
Location: Trois-Rivières, Québec Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 34
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 Posted: Wed 13 Dec, 2006 9:30 am Post subject: Baselard |
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Working on a baselard design and I'm having some interrogations.
It seems that most of them were bouble edge, but some not. Does it have something to do with the time period, or geography?
On some models, is the kind of flattened rig pommel covered with wood, or left open for a rope to secure to the wrist (I think it is called a lanyard, not sure of the english term)
And finally, is the hoblein type dagger considered a baselard? Is it gereralistion or a confusion on terms...or just a confusion on my part... 
Thank's
Antoine Marçal
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my web site;
http://antoinemarcal.wordpress.com/
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Wed 13 Dec, 2006 10:02 am Post subject: |
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Hello all!
Antoine,
I'm not sure if the exact nature of the baselard varied with geography, or just taste. Here's what George Cameron Stone said in his A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration, and Use of Arms and Armour in All Countries and in All Times about the baselard:
| George Cameron Stone wrote: |
BASELARD, BASILARD. A short sword, or dagger, carried by civilians in the 15th century. (ffoulkes 103.)
A short sword with a straight, tapering blade of diamond section, straight quillons and a cross pommel. Sometimes it had a straight hilt without a guard, 13th and 14th centuries. (Laking Armour III, 10). |
I believe it could be argued that the "Hoblein Dagger" is a derivative of the baselard, but the "Holbein" has a slightly different form, and is usually considered to be a bit later than the baselard. Here's what the Diagram Group book Weapons An International Encyclopedia from 5000 BC to 2000 AD says about the baselard and Hoblein dagger:
| Diagram Group wrote: |
Baselard. The medieval name for a type (of dagger) with a cross-piece at the guard and pommel. Most have tapered, double-edged blades. From c. 1300-1500.
Hoblein Dagger. A modern name for a style popular in Switzerland and copied by the Nazis in the 1930s. The example is Swiss, mid-16th century. |
I have seen a picture of a sword sized "baselard" with a ring pommel, but it's considered a rare or unique example. I'll look for more details later.
I hope this little bit helped! 
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Wed 13 Dec, 2006 11:04 am Post subject: |
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Hello again!
Antoine,
I've found more information regarding the baselard and Holbein dagger that you might find helpful. Gerald Weland defines the baselard and the "Swiss Dagger" (Holbein dagger) in A Collector's Guide to Swords, Daggers, and Cutlasses:
| George Weland wrote: |
BASELARD
One of the most popular and widespread daggers was the baselard, which is, it is thought, so named because it was invented in Basle, Switzerland (?); it is the forerunner of the Swiss dagger. The Baselard first appeared at the end of the 13th century. It was longer than most daggers-sometimes as long as a short sword- and a simple but sturdy crosspiece and pommel give itr a distinctive appearance, the entire handle resembling a capital I. The blades tapered evenly to a point, and the grips were made of two pieces of, usually horn, wood, or ivory, rivetted together. The baselard was used by people in all walks of life, including knights.
SWISS DAGGER
The Swiss dagger is sometimes confused with the schweizerdegen (the Swiss short sword), and it is a truly large and brutal-looking weapon. It is also known as the holbein, after the painter Hans Holbein the Younger, who produced a series of wood engravings entitled "The Dance of Death", motifs from which were frequently engraved on Swiss daggers. The daggers were usually flamboyantly decorated, and the scabbards were fashioned with designs depicting scenes from folklore. The Swiss dagger is the prototype of the German SS dagger,m which was first issued in 1936. |
This is what Claude Blair says about the baselard and Swiss dagger in European and American Arms:
| Claude Blair wrote: |
Baselard
A term, found very frequently in fourteenth- and fifteenth-century English texts, almost certainly denoting a type of dagger shown equally frequently in contemporary illustrations. This has a hilt shaped something like a capital I and is often long enough to be classed as a short-sword. The form seems to have originated in South Germany or North Italy in the late thirteenth century but soon spread to all parts of Europe, remaining in wide use until the late fifteenth century.
In fourteenth-century Italy and Germany short daggers of baselard type were used by armoured knights but after this date the baselard, usually with a fairly long, heavy blade, seems to have been carried almost exclusively by foot-soldiers and civilians. In England it seems to have been primarily a civilian weapon, but in Germany and Switzerland, where it is now usually called a Hauswehr or Schweizerdegen, it was extremely popular with infantry. In the sixteenth century it developed into the so-called Landesknecht sword and the type of dagger known to English collectors as a Holbein dagger.
Swiss Dagger
The successor to the baselard used in Germany and, especially, Switzerland throughout the sixteenth century. It had a hilt like that of the baselard and a short, leaf-shaped blade. The sheath was normally of gilt bronze or silver with elaborate cast and pierced decoration over a wooden lining. Hans Holbein the Younger produced designs for many of these sheaths whence the daggers are often called Holbein daggers by collectors. It should be mentioned that in Germany abnd Switzerland the term Schweizerdolch or Schweizerdegen is often applied to the medieval baselard. |
I found the photo of the ring-pommel sword that may be a large baselard. It's in the chapter "The Renaissance Spirit" by Donald J. LaRocca in Swords and Hilt Weapons. Here's what the caption says about this interesting piece:
| Donald J. LaRocca wrote: |
The ring pommel sword is a Swiss weapon and relatively short (only 27 ins/68 cm overall); its hilt may be a rare if not unique variant of the baselard. The grip consists of five plaques of ivy root separated by copper bands. |
In the same source, in the previous chapter "Barbarians and Christians", Anthony North defines the baselard:
| Anthony North wrote: |
One of the best known forms of medieval dagger is the baselard. This had a distinctive crosspiece at both the guard and pommel end, giving the hilt the appearance of a capital I. The type almost certainly originated in Switzerland and can be traced back to the thirteenth century. It seems to have been associated with the city of Basel, hence its name, but was widely carried throughout Europe, especially in the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries. As a satirical English song of the period says: "There is no man worth a leke, Be he sturdy, be he meke, But he bear a baselard." Versions with wood and bone hilts are common, but silver hilts were also made. |
Ewart Oakeshott speaks of the basilard (his version of the spelling) in The Archaeology of Weapons.
| Ewart Oakeshott wrote: |
From the time of the adoption of the "international" style of armour in the third quarter of the fourteenth century the dagger became an indispensable and visible part of the man-at-arm's equipment. Every military monument shows a dagger of one sort or another (or the remains of one) at the right hip. Many civilian figures, too, are shown wearing daggers, generally of the "Basilard" type. In fourteenth-century Italy it seems to have been almost the only kind used; hardly a picture painted between about 1300 and 1420 is without one visible somewhere...
The weapon itself is a stout, broad-bladed and sharply tapering dagger usually between 8 and 12 in. long, though a few shown on civilian effigies are longer. The hilt, generally of wood or horn, is shaped simply like a handle. When in civil dress it was customary to wear the dagger at the belt in front, hanging behind a large pouch in the manner of a sporran. |
I haven't really encountered more examples of baselards with "ring-pommels" other than the one shown in Swords and Hilt Weapons, but it is possible. During the time of the popularity of the baselard in the 14th century, knights often attached their helms, swords, and daggers to their breastplates or coats-of-plates with chains. A ring-pommel might serve as an attachment for such chains, but this is just speculative on my part. They usually attached a separate ring around the grip of the dagger which was attached to the chain.
Sorry about the lack of pictures; I can't scan in photos from my books without tearing out the pages. Maybe someone else with access to the books and a better scanner could post baselard and Swiss dagger pictures from Blair's European and American Arms and the chapters mentioned above in Swords and Hilt Weapons by Michael D. Coe et al.
I hope this was at least slightly helpful!
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Wed 13 Dec, 2006 11:38 am Post subject: |
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Hello again!
Antoine,
One more thing; I took another look at the two photos you posted, and the one baselard that appears to have a "flattened ring pommel" may have had the "ring" filled in by the grip plaques. There might not have been a ring or hole in the full piece. What appears to be a "ring" may be merely "straps" that go around the edges of the grip of horn, wood, or other suitable material. Many baselards seem to have a similar constructions where the grip plaques are continued into the "pommel" guard (the pommel side of the "capital I").
Just a suggestion!
Maybe someone can post some images of period or replica baselards.
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Wed 13 Dec, 2006 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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Hello again!
I found some rather interesting information regarding the baselard dagger in The Complete Encyclopedia of Arms & Weapons edited by Leonid Tarrasuk and Claude Blair. This is what it says in the entry about the baselard:
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baselard (or basilard) A DAGGER or short sword used in the 13th to the 15th centuies having an I-shaped hilt formed by the guard and the crosspiece of the pommel. Their form varied greatly. In italy the guard and the pommel were usually straight and of the same length, whereas in other European countries the upper crosspiece was usually markedly upward-curving and the guard straight. Another popular shape had both crosspieces curving slightly toward each other. The blade was double-edged, pointed, and reinforced with ribbing.
The term "baselard" was contemporary with the appearance of the weapon itself. For many years it was thought to derive from the town of Basel, as indicated by certain features in the hilt which, at a latter stage, were to become specialized in the Swiss dagger, wherein guard and pommel curve toward each other. The hilt was thus better adapted to firm, secure holding. The form of the baselard blade, in which the forte or upper section had straight and parallel edges which ended in an ogive-shaped tip, also bore some resemblance to the Swiss dagger. A theory has recently been put forward that the baselard came originally from Solingen, although the clear association with the name Basel and the existence of certain documents seem to indicate that the Swiss town was indeed the place of manufacture and that it was from there that this weapon was distributed throughout Europe. While the name was contemporary with the weapon itself, it cannot be maintained with certainty that it actually applied to this short sword, or dagger, rather than to a larger weapon of the storta (curved sword) type or to the weapon represented in a fresco dating back to the mid-14th century and preserved in Fiesole. This weapon also has an I-shaped hilt, but its blade was shaped with a straight back, single edge, and point. |
I thought I would add this entry, since it describes some of the regional variation of the baselard.
I hope this helped!
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Antoine M.
Industry Professional
Location: Trois-Rivières, Québec Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Wed 13 Dec, 2006 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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Wow,
Thank's, that's great Richard!
I looked at the albums here on myArmoury and they seem to vary greatly in design. That gives me a bit of creative space...
Any period paintings anyone?
Antoine Marçal.
my web site;
http://antoinemarcal.wordpress.com/
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