Posts: 5,739 Location: Wichita, Kansas
Fri 08 Dec, 2006 11:16 am
| P Ballou wrote: |
Some very interesting comments...
I am reminded of the gun safety class I took when I was a kid. They said that just the sound of cocking a pump action shotgun, even without a shell, is usually enough to scare off an intruder. Whipping out one of these tactical swords might have a similar effect, although if the intruder is armed with a gun, he'll probably fall over laughing. |
Anyone who is moronic enough to use a weapon of any kind as a form of intimidation deserves to have it taken away and used against them, which is the likely outcome if you display a weapon and lack the moral fortitude to use it.
Posts: 28 Location: N California
Fri 08 Dec, 2006 12:52 pm
| Patrick Kelly wrote: |
| Anyone who is moronic enough to use a weapon of any kind as a form of intimidation deserves to have it taken away and used against them, which is the likely outcome if you display a weapon and lack the moral fortitude to use it. |
I agree completely. I did not intend to imply not being prepared to use the weapon as it was intended. On the other hand, if an acceptable resolution can be reached without injury, this, IMHO, would be preferable.
What I meant is that these new tactical swords from ATrim look pretty mean and effective.
Last edited by P Ballou on Fri 08 Dec, 2006 3:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posts: 11,553 Location: San Francisco
Fri 08 Dec, 2006 2:04 pm
| P Ballou wrote: |
| This discussion does seem to be veering off-topic a bit... |
Yes, it does, and not in one that I am happy seeing.
Posts: 5,739 Location: Wichita, Kansas
Fri 08 Dec, 2006 3:11 pm
| Quote: |
| On the other hand, if an acceptable resolution can be reached without injury, this, IMHO, would be preferable. |
Indeed, but one should prepare for the worst.
| Quote: |
| This discussion does seem to be veering off-topic a bit... |
True enough. Unfortunately the talk of anything "tactical" usually degenerates into a debate by armchair commandos. (no specific pointing to anyone participating in this thread) Even though these are swords their marketing venue makes it hard to prevent such things. Interesting product development by Gus just the same. Whether or not there's a legitimate need for such things there's still a large market for them. (just like period correct replicas) I'm sure they'll sell well for Gus.
Posts: 870 Location: Seattle area
Fri 08 Dec, 2006 6:13 pm
| Patrick Kelly wrote: |
True enough. Unfortunately the talk of anything "tactical" usually degenerates into a debate by armchair commandos. (no specific pointing to anyone participating in this thread) Even though these are swords their marketing venue makes it hard to prevent such things. Interesting product development by Gus just the same. Whether or not there's a legitimate need for such things there's still a large market for them. (just like period correct replicas) I'm sure they'll sell well for Gus. |
Well, I suppose we could just call them "contemporary" swords.....*g*
I don't know how big the market is....... a lot of the custom tactical knife makers also make short swords for the same market. But with custom knife makers you quite often have rabid fans that make fans of certain swordmaking firms seem tame in comparison......
Then there's Criswell, who tells me he's making a pretty good living making his tactical kats and now tactical daos and waks....
So maybe there is a market for these......
I don't know whether there's a legitimate need for a tactical long blade either. But I do know that just before the invasion of Iraq, I made two shortswords scheduled to go with their owners in, when deployed. And I've three made since then that were either supposed to go to Iraq or Afghanistan......... Then that near miss last spring.......
Frankly, a sword mounted like I ussually do, the standard AT cruciform setup, has a few weakness' that I wanted to eliminate for weapons potentially being carried "for real". The leather of the handle is going to scuff and wear, the guard, even shortened can catch, the pommel can catch, and if the owner takes his sword apart a lot, then the nut can become a problem. A sword that you can't get together again isn't going to do you any good if you actually wound up with a use for it..... Then there's the problem that a handle can shrink, making for a loose hilt..... a guard could get struck on something hard crosswise, making for a loose rattly hilt, etc.......
So now, I've eliminated all of those potential problems, and the sword is now flattter too. The sword should be a lot more durable in use than a cruciform hilted setup.......and I've maintained the dynamic handling and performance properties.....
A teaser pic of one I got out of heat treat yesterday, and got rough ground today........
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Posts: 8,310 Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Fri 08 Dec, 2006 8:50 pm
Calling them modern concept swords could be an option as actual tactical use is more a Walter Mitty thing except for the rare police or special forces thing. Or, cool action movies: Think of the " Blade " series.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_Life_of_Walter_Mitty
That said, I really like the concept and my interest in swords and weapons in general is one of form and function as much as historical. To me they are very visual and tactile objects: Art objects i.e. sculpture that can be handled and that have dynamic properties. Good or bad every sword feels unique !
Gus, I really like these designs and I look forward to seeing some of the ones not yet shown on your site like the Balisard. :cool: I imagine a " H " shaped handle with a medium length triangular blade maybe ?
When I have paid for my current projects I think I will seriously consider a few of these. ;) :cool:
Oh, a Falchion is also in the list of projected types. :cool: :cool: :cool:
Posts: 5,739 Location: Wichita, Kansas
Sat 09 Dec, 2006 4:57 am
Just call them the Triminator Line. :lol:
Posts: 73 Location: New Zealand
Sat 09 Dec, 2006 5:09 am
While a gun might be the preferred option, ownership may (as noted on Gus' website) be restricted to the point that you have to look at other choices for defence, as
this article demonstrates. When you are considering a melee weapon for home defence, I am sure these swords will perform admirably.
Posts: 2,698 Location: Indonesia
Sat 09 Dec, 2006 5:16 am
Triminator? Sounds funny.
And I still stand by my suggestion that a sword-bayonet would make an excellent addition to the line. The issue will be what kind of rifle should Gus try to fit it to, because currently I'm not aware of any bayonets attached with Picatinny rails!
Posts: 291 Location: NW Ark
Sat 09 Dec, 2006 5:28 am
I think these are rather interesting.
Can anyone say "grip-tongue sword", ala Naue II???? (big, happy, grin)
Short stout blades with simple fittings and grip-scales have always appealed to me.
The modern fantasy element is definitely there for me---these would surely put paid to roving hordes of zombies, evil mummies escaped from the museum, dastardly vampires on the prowl in suburban neighborhoods, and the ever-present bands of ninjas.
From a more realistic perspective, here is weapon that will likely never fail, that is sturdy and tough, and intrinsically more reliable than any kind of mechanical device, be it a folding knife or firearm. (I am a major gun hound, and I *still* have nightmares about mechanical failures in firearms---someone recently chalked it up to a lethally bad past life experience---grin).
There are plenty of soldiers/warriors/militia/bandits that still carry some sort of long bladed fighting weapon, be it a khukuri, a machete, a parang, or a dha.
All in all, the tactical short swords remind me very much of a qama, qaddara, or kinjal, which remain, in my mind, the ultimate, "always-there" sidearm for a fighting man (or woman, as the case may be).
Posts: 184 Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Sat 09 Dec, 2006 6:45 am
Well, speaking from the perspective of someone who has purchased one of Gus' new line (Tac Longsword), The 'different' quality of the the sword appealed to me for one thing. In reading Gus' comments about its cutting ability and durability, I decided it was something I wanted to have for training and just plain fun...a sword that I could use 'guilt free' as it were without the "Do I really want to risk scratching/scufifng/damaging my (Insert smith name here) blade." that I seem to suffer from. :) Personally, I do kind of see it as a fantasy-esque piece, but I bet it will be a blast to 'play' with!
Posts: 1,812 Location: Washington DC metro area, USA
Sat 09 Dec, 2006 7:02 am
I am particularly intrigued by the "TAC CUTTOE", since I have a fondness for hangers, hunting swords and cuttoes, though "TAC" combined with "CUTTOE" strikes me as a bit of a contradiction in terms. Cuttoes were a development of hunting swords "...slenderized and refined for wear by gentlemen as informal town swords", according to George C. Neumann in his
Swords & Blades of the American Revolution. I suspect that Gus' TAC CUTTOE will be a bit more kick-ass, and less refined gentleman :lol:.
| Patrick Kelly wrote: |
| Just call them the Triminator Line. :lol: |
Excellent!
Posts: 552 Location: San Jose, CA
Sat 09 Dec, 2006 11:34 am
| Steve Grisetti wrote: |
I am particularly intrigued by the "TAC CUTTOE", since I have a fondness for hangers, hunting swords and cuttoes, though "TAC" combined with "CUTTOE" strikes me as a bit of a contradiction in terms. Cuttoes were a development of hunting swords "...slenderized and refined for wear by gentlemen as informal town swords", according to George C. Neumann in his Swords & Blades of the American Revolution. I suspect that Gus' TAC CUTTOE will be a bit more kick-ass, and less refined gentleman :lol:.
| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | Just call them the Triminator Line. :lol: |
Excellent! |
I'm definitely interested in the 'Tac Gladius' when it comes out. :p :) ;-)
Posts: 230 Location: New Joisey
Sat 09 Dec, 2006 12:17 pm
I'd rather have an Albion...
Posts: 9,545 Location: Dayton, OH
Sat 09 Dec, 2006 12:24 pm
| Thomas Jason wrote: |
| I'd rather have an Albion... |
What does this have to do with this discussion? This comment adds nothing to the discussion. Not everyone has the same preferences. Embrace the diversity.
Last edited by Chad Arnow on Sat 09 Dec, 2006 1:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posts: 870 Location: Seattle area
Sat 09 Dec, 2006 1:48 pm
| Steve Grisetti wrote: |
I am particularly intrigued by the "TAC CUTTOE", since I have a fondness for hangers, hunting swords and cuttoes, though "TAC" combined with "CUTTOE" strikes me as a bit of a contradiction in terms. Cuttoes were a development of hunting swords "...slenderized and refined for wear by gentlemen as informal town swords", according to George C. Neumann in his Swords & Blades of the American Revolution. I suspect that Gus' TAC CUTTOE will be a bit more kick-ass, and less refined gentleman :lol:.
|
Why thank you Steve........
The photo above is the Tac Cuttoe in rough ground form. In that form, the handling is more pleasant than the two double edged shorties, and it feels quicker to boot........
It would make an effective short melee weapon...... it also might be capable of "brush" work, somewhat better, lets say, than a double edged sword.......
Depending on where you live, probably not a good idea to wear one of these around town these days.....*g*
Posts: 230 Location: New Joisey
Sat 09 Dec, 2006 3:32 pm
| Chad Arnow wrote: |
| Thomas Jason wrote: | | I'd rather have an Albion... |
What does this have to do with this discussion? This comment adds nothing to the discussion. Not everyone has the same preferences. Embrace the diversity. |
Okay, fine you want more, you are going to get more...
There has been a lot of talk "behind the scenes" about this line and there is major concern that the Atrim Tactical Line is essentially an attempt to "Cash in" with the "Weaponmasters" crowd.
There has been a bit of damage to the Atrim Brand Equity with people who are more focused on traditional arts due to this line.
That may not be the intent, but that's what some people are thinking.
Posts: 9,545 Location: Dayton, OH
Sat 09 Dec, 2006 4:05 pm
| Thomas Jason wrote: |
Okay, fine you want more, you are going to get more...
There has been a lot of talk "behind the scenes" about this line and there is major concern that the Atrim Tactical Line is essentially an attempt to "Cash in" with the "Weaponmasters" crowd.
There has been a bit of damage to the Atrim Brand Equity with people who are more focused on traditional arts due to this line.
That may not be the intent, but that's what some people are thinking. |
Thomas,
I'd strongly urge you to watch your tone. I did not want more from you on this off-topic trash, I wanted less; much less.
I don't care about behind the scenes talk one whit. If Gus wants to take his business in this direction, that's, well, his business. He has to be concerned with the image of his brand. What does his brand image have to do with this thread? Does branching out into lines you don't care for change the quality of any of his products you currently have or might buy? No, not a bit.
Back on topic. Now.
Posts: 834
Sat 09 Dec, 2006 4:58 pm
I like the full tang. The design, looks like it would lend itself, pretty well, to customization.Like exotic hardwoods for the handle. and the like
Posts: 870 Location: Seattle area
Sat 09 Dec, 2006 7:38 pm
| Thomas Jason wrote: |
There has been a bit of damage to the Atrim Brand Equity with people who are more focused on traditional arts due to this line.
That may not be the intent, but that's what some people are thinking. |
Hi ThomJ
I'll bet the last thing you expected was a positive response from me.....*g* But since you brought some of this up, and its already obvious in some circles I'll mention it in passing.......
Two years ago there may have been an Angus Trim Brand Equity, but not today, not the same way anyways. The last year I worked with Josh Hemingway, we did 37 swords a month, average. This year, more like 12........... Of course I do the sword complete in the shop now, and it wasn't that way then........
Things are changing for the coming year........... For one thing I'm not going to beat my head in trying to get the numbers up. Life's too short......
I've been paying $3600/mo machine payment for over 4 years. 2007 sees that finalized, no more payment after that.......
So, instead of trying to buck Albion, A&A, and maybe Paul Chen to some degree, I'm going to use this last year's numbers and live with that. Navy work kept things going this last year, but I really don't want to work those excruciatingly long hours that it takes to do sword work, and Navy machine work.........
The market has changed a lot in the last two years.......... lets talk sparring stuff first. In the small circles that have my rapier blades, they're acknowledged the best fencing rapier blades money can buy. But I don't make many of them.....
Last year, for instance, I made 5 SB1450s, 2 SB1452s, 2 sidesword blades, 2 backsword blades, and 20 rapier blades..... haven't made any dagger blades to go with the rapier blades, but the waiting list is now long enough that I'll probably run 10 to 12 early in January.......
I don't really expect or want to make anymore next year. For one thing, oddly enough, mine are the most expensive on the market. I look at my SB1450, for instance, look at the new upcoming Albion line, the nice stuff A&A has, and the Paul Chen stuff {which is constantly improving}, and I really don't see playing a price game with them....... I'm happy where I'm at, and I'd probably be happy not making anymore.......
On the sharp western stuff, lets face it, the market is saturated......Paul Chen is the best of the cheap stuff....... Albion is now "the place" to go for "historically accurate" medieval swords, and Arms and Armor is known for the best compound hilt stuff, with the caveat there are some custom makers who are acknowledged better.......
My strength? Durability, handling, performance....... For instance, the 1516 that was tested recently cutting pork shoulders had a finer edge than the Brescia that I saw at Atlanta, yet held up much better than the both Brescia's tested in Hong Kong.......
Should I push this? I thought about it, then decided against it......
Albion makes really nice stuff, but Howie's vision has always been different than mine, just like PJ's is different than mine....... and an aggressive Gus is not likely to be a good thing in the current marketplace.........
Instead, I looked at our market....... you could sorta define it as collectors, WMA practitioners, and the backyard cutters {sword enthusiasts if you prefer}....... Two years ago, WMA practitioners and backyard cutters were about tied as my customer base, but today its pretty much the backyard cutter........
So, when the machine payment's gone, I won't need a lot of "sales" to live on....... and I no longer have the drive to "grow the business"......... Now I want to get better at what I'm doing, recognizing my strengths, and live within my own niche.......
So, the original AT lineup is going to shrink........and I won't do any customizations {that's where Christian Fletcher comes in}......and I'm going to try this tactical lineup........and I'm going to do a few limited production permanently assembled swords.........
About a month ago there was a 'Joe and the Volcano" thing.... partially because I had already come to the decision that the niche I've kind of fallen into is where I belong. I'm not really Albion's competition, nor A&As, nor Paul Chen's...... though I'm not a true smith either, I think where I'm headed makes me closer related to the Randal Graham, John Lundemo, Michael "Tinker" Pearce kinda folk. Not a true smith, and certainly not a custom swordmaker, but even so, that's more where I'm headed than a large sword manufacturer in the NW.
If you want a historically correct medieval piece, Albion. A historically correct Renaissance piece, A&A {and some select medieval pieces to be true}. You want a superb cutter, where maybe historical accuracy isn't perfect, then AT....
Though I do intend that the Permanent Assembled line be pretty accurate, there's not going to be many of them.....
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